Regenerative agriculture has caught family office attention -- $4 Billion over 48 Funds. Don't miss out - Listen to WHY you should consider private investments into your local foodshed, vegetarian or meat-eater in this Summit Roundtable between Naval officer Jim Haberer and Grass Fed Cattle Rancher Rich Bradbury. Part 2 focuses on the how and what to invest in for impact.
Rich Bradbury is no gentleman farmer. He is helping provide a superior grass fed meat product and regenerate the soil by advancing regenerative practices in the drought stricken Great Basin in Oregon.
Jim Haberer serves his nation as naval officer stationed in Naples, Italy and he wants to invest for impact from abroad. Despite being almost vegetarian, he believes in the power of planned holistic grazing. But with his career it's hard for him to get out onto the land directly. He’s in full R&D mode now, there’s no stopping him.
Stay tuned for part 2 where we go into the technical details of private investment through many different proven vehicles to make money and make a difference.
Proudly affiliated with Aspiration Bank & Sustainable Investors Group
Thanks again to Rich and Jim to help us unpack this on our Summit Roundtable.
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[00:00:00] Here we are. So now we're recording. All right. Welcome to the summit round table, merging people. You wouldn't expect to bridge sustainability and investments. And for today's round table, we're asking the question. Can we unlock sustainability with regenerative agriculture? And joining me on this round table is rich Bradbury.
Hey, how are you today? I'm very good. Very good. We finally are [00:00:30] getting into some sunshine here in Germany. So I got my garden in the ground yesterday. Finally right on the sun is just coming up here. So I'm on top of the hill and I'm looking into what it looks like going to be a beautiful sunrise. Yeah.
Where, where are you joining us from rich? I live in a small corner in Eastern Oregon called, uh, ADL. Um, it's in the great basin, which is a part of the west that sort of Utah, Idaho. That a [00:01:00] little tip of Oregon and I'm in that part of Oregon. Yeah. That holds a special place in my heart. I grew up in Idaho.
My parents were dairy farmers and Buhl. Okay. Yeah. So very, a great base. And it's an interesting climate. Um, but yeah, it's a nice place to live. I've been around I've ranched in Russia and I've worked at the oil fields. Uh, [00:01:30] had a three-year old and decided it was time to come home and to supply life a little bit.
You ran a ranched in Russia. Can you share more about that? Yeah. Um, in the early 2000 tens, Russia bought about throughout over the decades, they bought about 650,000 cattle from Canada, the United States, New Zealand, Australia. And, um, imported them over [00:02:00] to Russia to start a, a number of ranches. And, um, I had met somebody that was buying, um, the halfers to port over there and just kept peppering them with questions.
And finally, they asked me if I just wanted to come over and work. So, um, really unique and interesting experience got to, um, sort of an open laboratory for ranching. So I really got to explore a lot of the techniques and the [00:02:30] conservation stuff that I had, uh, learned about because we're all learning together.
Not there wasn't any preconceived notions. Yeah. That, that culture difference has to be quite different. I imagine you got a different perspective. Yeah. Great. Edit still stays with me. So yeah, it was very unique in that. I won't say it all ended well, but, uh, I could probably go back and live in Russia. Uh, do much better [00:03:00] job, but just such drastically different cultures.
Yeah, absolutely. Can you paint a picture of what it's like there in Oregon where you're working? Um, I, so I live in a high desert sagebrush in a sagebrush biome, um, and they call it the toll desert because it's so high and it can, uh, be about 20 degrees here. Um, I live on the transition between, uh, Willamette mountains, uh, wander mountains and the [00:03:30] coast and where the great base starts.
So we have a mostly Sage brush, but we're right where the pine tree forest and Ponderosa pine forest all start. Um, it's really a unique and beautiful spot. Sort of an acquired taste, but answer your question. Yeah, absolutely. It's a, it's kind of interesting because you've got this [00:04:00] varied background, you said you worked in the oil as well for quite a time.
Yeah. And then we're talking about regenerative, agriculture and cattle, and that as a means to actually improve the soil and lock carbon into the soil. And I think a lot of people don't quite understand that connection. I think there's this conception that, you know, cows are bad for the planet. I even saw something about Epicurious [00:04:30] eliminating all meat recipes from their entire website or whatnot, but you know, myself having grown up in the west and.
Just a minimal amount of research. It seems like there's a huge potential here for regenerative agriculture to actually do a lot more for the planet. Then, you know, for example, buying a Tesla, can you, can you explain what the processes are like and what kind of benefits might happen with regenerative agriculture?
[00:05:00] Um, I think I spent a lot of time thinking about regenerative agriculture and I have days that I'm really positive about it. Days like this, this is never going to work. Um, the science with the cattle and the room in it. So just to eliminate cattle, any animal that has the ruminant stomach compose it, they can break down seeds and proteins and, uh, grasses and everything.
Not only that can be [00:05:30] consumable by people, but they fertilized and transfer seeds around places. Like the west where I live that are, uh, sort of always in threat of desertification. And that's just a small part of regenerative agriculture. It's really, uh, really sort of a big tent. And, uh, I always, uh, get frustrated because when people think of regenerative agriculture, they think of a Joel Salatin will Harris, [00:06:00] um, both amazing people.
But when I talk about regenerative agriculture, I'm coming from a much different perspective because I live in a biome and a client that, that gets a six to 10 inches rain a year. When you go and look at somebody like white Oak pasture on the east coast, then your seed, um, that they get 70 to 80 inches of rain a year.
Now my form of regenerative agriculture in that form of regenerative agriculture, you're going to [00:06:30] be completely discern. I'm going to be worried about the microbiome under the Sage brush, um, in the soil. We have a really huge system here in my part of Oregon, we have limited amount of water, but where we do have water, we go wild hay that, um, hay is grown up and process lose about 30% of the carbon to the atmosphere when that happened.
Um, then we put it back into, on, back on those fields, by feeding it back to the [00:07:00] cattle, they run it through their digestive system. The seeds go back into things. Some of my fields have very sick mats because this has been, this was, I always say that I got a, I inherited a legacy of regenerative agriculture, the word wasn't there, but like a lot of the stuff that happened that allows me to talk about Regina and agriculture was because people generations, the way I go make good choices with the resources that they had.
Um, I'll [00:07:30] stop. But you asked the questions I might've got on a little tangent, so yeah, it's, it's a very broad topic and, um, a little bit hard to understand, but, um, yeah, I think that a lot of people have this idea of like a cute blonde family raising broccoli and having chickens is what regenerative agriculture is.
But I don't, I don't know that that's even possible to feed the amount of people that we have on this planet. So I was kind of curious, like, [00:08:00] what do you see as, uh, as some techniques or systems for regenerative agriculture that can scale that can, you know, grow if it had the right investment where it could actually do a lot more for sequestering carbon,
I'm going to give you my art example of something that we're working, that we're actually implementing. Um, then tell, talk about another project that I'm working on. That's really cool. I want to hit [00:08:30] on the topic of scale because I'm Regina of agriculture, sustainable ag has this sort of idealic Farmscape, uh, 80 acres, um, just this beautiful setting, red barn, white fences, people working out by hand and like art artists that are artists and type of connotation.
But do you know what they call that in Vermont? They call that being a gentleman farmer. Yeah. Yeah. Which I'm not [00:09:00] complaining about. But when we talked about a gentleman farmer in Vermont versus some guy that's going to, um, farm 20,000 acres of, uh, crops in Modesto, California, you're looking at two totally different things.
You're looking at the big part of you're looking at the sort of a real cultivated thing. And then you've got a guy that's looking for peak vision. And for the economic returns and the environmental returns for agriculture to work, [00:09:30] um, they asked to be scalable and you have to think about that guy, but Desto and what he's doing, because, um, I think that one, third of all, our food in the United States comes from, uh, California and probably the largest 80% of that comes from that Bakersfield Modesto area right there in central California.
So, um, yeah, I've preached scale a lot because, uh, we're marketing to the consumer, [00:10:00] these gentlemen farms and it's, it's, it's not helping the cause of a urine culture because it casts this guy. Modesto is the evil, evil villain. Well, there's little things you can start to do right away to start becoming regenerative.
And like, so that's, that would be a good transition into one of the things we do with our grasp. Where we a former co-op the grass fed company in the Idaho area, mountain home. Um, [00:10:30] and what we do is not only do we raise the beef, but we partner with farmers to put cover crops in, in the winter when the fields really be fallow.
And what we have to do to make that happen is it's in the farmer's best interest to keep a root root structure in the ground and to keep cover on that field in the winter, rather than just letting the wind elements blow away the top soil. So with a little extra line of revenue for them, we'll bring them, they can put it, uh, they can take their cash crop, come back with a [00:11:00] cover crop, Timothy peas, uh, forge corn, all these different things.
And, uh, we'll pay him for that winter stuff and it helps us and it helps the farmer. It helps the environment. We get a cheaper, we have a better feed over the winter and by growing this, not only in Idaho, but in Kansas, we've also limited the cost of feed grasping kept during the winter by a dollar a day, which is [00:11:30] absolutely huge as $30 a month.
So, um, I think that's enough, but we can talk about that project from there, but, um, there's just so many different angles that you can approach for Jeremy agriculture. It's just a fascinating, and uh, I think it's a real, it could be harnessed, right? It's a real economic boon to the U S and to the world.
Yeah, absolutely. It seems like you're trying to link different groups together so that they all can benefit from each [00:12:00] other. And then you're, you're getting little by little, those regenerative practices in, so that it is actually sustainable financially. Yeah. It's a big church and the more, and if you start attacking.
I want it to be a big church, I guess I should say. I think that you want us to regenerate agriculture to work in the long-term. You have to start re rewarding. What we've seen through the grass fed thing is once we get a farmer to put a cover crop in, then it become, it, [00:12:30] engages them. They start seeing the financial benefit.
Um, then they're start, they're coming to us with ideas and they're saying, Hey, if we did this, would you have California? We're like, yeah. So, um, there is a real economic force. This isn't just something that we're doing to change the climate or to capture carbon though. There there's an economic benefit.
That'll pick up an industry that is historically one of the lowest medium income industries in the United States. And it's also declining. It's a very [00:13:00] declining part of our food system. And the fact that only one point. 1.8% of the entire us population farms. So, and that number goes down every day. So we need to put some economics back into agriculture because our food security and nutrition that we have on our plate, um, our soil health, our environment, it all needs it all.
So much of it goes back to getting the right investment into agriculture in the right places and rewarding. Those [00:13:30] changes towards the positive, rather than casting somebody that does, isn't doing everything right as the enemy let's get them on board. I think that entire rent regenerative agriculture is a very scalable thing, but sort of has become a concern that's understood across not only agriculture, but across the consumer base and through our outer government and policies.
How, how are consumers supposed to get involved with this? So if you know, there's things like different certifications [00:14:00] or whatnot. And from my understanding that often adds quite an expense to the producer, the farmer, the rancher, um, and considering, I mean, I watched my grandparents in the slim margins that they have.
I'm wondering how to consumers put their dollars where their, where their mouth is, you know, as far as wanting to support regenerative practices,
it's interesting. The United States [00:14:30] agriculturally some, a lot of the times will lead. Um, they'll invest in like early on when they were trying to cure wheat rust. It was the United States that invested in the borough log program down in Mexico that are, they bred the type of wheat to eliminate the weed rate.
What I see in the United States happening is we have a real, this runs contradictions. A lot of them. We have very [00:15:00] high environmental standards. We have an agency that watches the water. We have an agency that we work with that watches, um, wildlife and works with farmers and ranchers to increase wildlife habitat, get better grasses and, um, get better water system.
I'm trying, I just lost my thing, my train of thought. So what was the [00:15:30] question I might, might get back on track here. Yeah. So how do consumers put their dollars where their mouths are as far as wanting to support regenerative agriculture? Yeah, so. And we encourage our politicians and our regulation systems and everything to create this really why on the offset, it doesn't seem like the healthiest system.
It is a system that supports a tremendous population. So we [00:16:00] vote to have these values, to have these higher environmental standards. And then we buy food from out of, from out of the country that doesn't have those same standards and I'm not, not advocating for closing borders, anything, but I'm just saying, I find it sort of interesting that, um, Americans have this high rhetoric grit about, um, climate and, um, environment and their food, but [00:16:30] when it comes to it, they always choose the cheapest option, which is oftentimes not the domestic product that they're voting for.
So I think that's just something that everybody should keep in there. Um, ag investment is huge. That whole structure of how things get invested. We need to, um, um, change that financial system. So I think a lot of it comes from the VA's [00:17:00] desire to keep a stable food supply. And so they have to, because there are huge unwieldy, um, government organization.
They have to have a really, really good structure as to what every producer needs to be to keep this whole food system turning and then the whole population going comfortable about their food. So they don't have much time to focus on things like Virginia of agriculture and thus the banks [00:17:30] that are tied to the farm credit system and that kind of stuff.
They want you to stay in a certain lines. Um, sort of, so the way that the tow, the ideas and everything that helps the greatest amount of people. So yeah, we need to have more outside investment into agriculture, especially regenerative agriculture products, because there's only so much that the current financial system is set up for and it doesn't reward real output Mapbox.
[00:18:00] Yeah. I hear what you're saying is that innovative or creative approaches, there's not a lot of room for risk in the agriculture sector sector right now. Would you say that it's really hard to sort of, um, find the financing that's needed for people to try these different practices and experiment? Yeah, it's an interesting story.
So I don't know if you're aware of a Stewart, which is the new regenerative agriculture funding solution that has the [00:18:30] it's sort of like you have micro investors. So one project might. A $25,000 project might have 14 investors, um, as really they really getting some cool projects. So I'd worked with them earlier and, uh, I had a bunch of, I had a funny, their system all set up.
Um, and yeah, and it took me a lot of time to get there. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to execute it because some of the [00:19:00] people at our co-op, uh, were not comfortable with the, uh, alternative financing. So, um, it's scary. It's scary for both sides to get people invested in these new products. They give it, um, people that agriculture are leery of anything.
One of our members called it the wild west of financing. I done a lot of due diligence and I was a perfectly comfortable I'd met with the guy. It was there. I got on with, I got visited with [00:19:30] them very early on. So I knew the CEO and the chief operating officer. We visited on times and we put together what we thought was a really good package.
And, uh, I just, uh, was amazed at how much I'd missed. So really that's the other thing is we need agriculture investment, but to get farmers and ranchers up for these alternate up to speed and an educational center to take advantage of these, um, different programs and everything, because it takes a different level of sophistication because the people that are funding [00:20:00] and, and invested, they have a different set of expectations than what most farmers and ranchers are used to.
When you say different expectations, what do you mean by that?
When I worked with the USDA, there's like a, um, and you work with the farm credit service. There's a certain shorthand. Everybody goes through you, you put the file, this paperwork, do this paperwork, uh, use this [00:20:30] collateral. Um, yeah. As long as you're producing this product X product and sending it in the general direction that you're supposed to be sending it, then they're satisfied.
And I think that the system is built to accommodate a lot of flexibility for people that don't hit those lines, that kind of stuff. But I had to, I have, as soon as I start looking at alternative by, by the alert about pitch decks, [00:21:00] um, whole different, you get a whole get asked for a whole different set of, uh, tools in that and private and alternative investing than you do in the farm credit.
So it's pretty pretty as a government industry, pretty efficient, pretty simple. Um, when you start dealing with multiple partners and stakeholders, like in, um, alternative investment or any new investment schemes, there's just a whole nother level of complexity. That's been engineered out of the [00:21:30] traditional ag financing.
Yeah. How do you feel about the carbon marketplaces as far as companies that want to offer, not offset, but want to, um, sort of reverse their, their carbon footprint by sort of transferring? Um, let me say that again. How do you feel about the carbon marketplaces that are springing up in order to try to allow the urban companies that want to have a negative carbon [00:22:00] emissions by paying ranchers or farmers to do regenerative practices?
I was really excited when this first came out. I remember, um, indigo was an early mover. There was probably some more, um, I guess they weren't the earliest, but they were the ones that caught most traction captured my imagination. And honestly, at the beginning I was very excited about it. But over the last couple of years that have really been.
Honoring the [00:22:30] markets and seeing how the current pay outers is structured is I can see that, um, as is typical in all situations in agriculture, it's, there's a reason why 32 cents on a dollar goes back to the farm or whatever absurdly low number it is is because every time, how would I phrase it? If you really put all the agricultural direct and indirect how much it adds into the [00:23:00] GOP?
I think it's around 3.6, sorry, Brian, between three and $4 trillion. That's not all going back to the land that gets gobbled up by the layers and layers of, uh, middlemen. And some are very necessary and I am happy to pay the service because it gets me out in the end. But boy, there's a lot of people that I have to fund that I have no.
No need to fund. And I see this happening in the carbon markets, [00:23:30] uh, and I see it in the certification the first, uh, it's a very simple process. Then there, they lad add layers of complexity to it. Pretty soon they need more people to manage the layers of complexity. And I ended up paying more and receiving less of a premium and I have more hassles.
So, um, the carbon market seemed like a very simple idea, determine how much carbon, uh, farmers sequestering off [00:24:00] of a baseline and then turn and then give them that money. And you exchange the carbon to accompany and that there's pretty direct payment there. Then what happens? What I saw happening is the.
There was no true market place for the carbon. There was companies that had special interests that control different things that caps on things I will give the, I won't give. I also ignoring the one that I've seen that, um, [00:24:30] has the only real flight market where they're not, they're just managing the middle.
So they're making, so there's a percentage that you pay them. I forget what it is for making the transaction between the personal line of the bar, the carbon, and the person trying to sell the carbon. And they have a oversight to make sure that it's all above board. Isn't that they're really having that carbon in it every year.
So you can't just sit on the carbon credit. So that was really cool. But what I saw in most [00:25:00] markets is as they grew and they found that there's more and more layers and more people go out and check soil, they needed more people to do marketing that kind of. And the chunk that got went back to the land and the farmer just got smaller.
And this is the case that happens in agriculture all the time. There's agriculture packs, a tremendous burden than a whole bunch of a different industry, and all those industries need to grow. [00:25:30] And the piece of the pie pie, that's going back to the resource that supports them all gets smaller and smaller.
And the carbon market just seemed to, uh, do that and amplified it like two times the speed. It was amazing. So what we have decided is, um, we'll do carbon projects based on by project based. Um, will we have a third-party that worked, that we worked [00:26:00] through that links us with, um, those, those investors, those donors.
We come up with a project by project based, we monitor what the, we set out, what the goal. Now it comes is that the end. And, um, then we trade that they invest in the project and then they get the carbon offset, um, like a tax repeat rebate. It's a really interesting system and it's based. [00:26:30] So I can tell you, there's not one system that they're not trying to fit it into all ones.
I can tailor something that's unique to my high desert environment. And then somebody in North Carolina can tailor a carbon sequestration project that's unique to their right and their weight on an individual basis. And just cut out everybody in between and the, the third party that does the administration and the soil testing, they take a [00:27:00] set percent.
That's what they say. Okay. So in effect, you're doing that based on what resources you have and your expertise directly for the company or the investors that want that carbon, um, certificate. Yeah. And they're in on it. So they go and they say, oh, I like this project. So I'm going to get behind this project, local to my food shed.
So this is what I want to support. Right. There's a little bit more ownership there. Can you share what, um, [00:27:30] why is grass fed beef uniquely situated to be good at this carbon sequestration versus other other methods? Can you maybe just sort of walk us through kind of, what is it like with the cattle and the grass and then in the environment, like how does that all work together?
So at the cow calf level, the level that I'm at, um, we have that where we're at, we have that continuous cycle where. Taking the car with us, still it [00:28:00] out that the plants are sequestering that or running into the cow or deposited it back on the soil. We're feeding the soil microbiome. Um, and as long as we're not doing it, we're not using heavy pesticides.
We're antibiotic free, we're home free. We're not really recycling a bunch of bad stuff through that animal that has. So it's amazing all the chemicals and everything that has an adverse effect on soil health and can [00:28:30] sometimes neutral neutralize it completely. Um, yeah, so that's one of the, so we have that little system in our local sort of our local level.
And when those grass fed cattle, leave the ranch and go to finishing pastures or a cover crop or to a pasture they're also. They're continuing to support [00:29:00] pot, everything. It seems like stress that that animal gets fed has to be well managed, has to be pretty prestigious, um, has to be doing something positive.
Um, how far did the cattle move? So we have some that moved from our part of Southern Oregon to Idaho, because, so they'll be up there when the, uh, processing plant, those are the ones that go to the cover [00:29:30] crops. So they'll be up there until they reach a period of maturity where they can be harvested. And, um, so they're not very far from the actual processing facility, probably within, um, 60 miles at any given time.
Once they're not. And most of the, most of the ranchers of barbers are in Idaho. I probably have one of the longest trucking bill, so, um, to get them up there alive, but yeah. Then once we get, [00:30:00] once they get up there, they start that whole crop or cover crop rotation. They're on, uh, pastures in some of the more beautiful parts of Idaho.
And by those cattle being there, they're really a sort of a placeholder for a rural sprawl and different types of development. So that the path of a grass fed cattle animal is pretty much regenerative from beginning in just to make the system work because [00:30:30] it's taken out all those inputs that conventional beef needs.
So it's really interesting thing to agriculture too, because you almost have to leverage your culture, theories and concepts.
So in and of itself, it already is pretty regenerative as is relative to some other agriculture practices. Yeah, absolutely. I would make the argument that ranching as a general [00:31:00] already has a lot. I mean, there's the feedlot, so worst case scenario, but all the guys that run cow calves that feed those feedbacks, they don't, they sell those cattle off the ranch.
What happens after that? So you have these procedures, a ranch is all across the west because they have Virginia practices. It's it has, it doesn't have much to do with, uh, what's at the actual resources. What happens to those cattle after they leave that resource? That's when [00:31:30] they become the most, uh that's when they need the most input or they're taking, they're actually taking out of the system rather than adding back in.
That's an incredibly complex topic. It's far above my pay grade, but, um, I just wanted to, I, I can't even imagine the complexity of it, but let's move over to the other side of the round table with Jim Haber. He's coming to us from Naples, Italy, and he's [00:32:00] very interested in the idea of, of agriculture. And I just wanted to, um, get to know you a little bit and give us a little brief background of your history and sort of where you are and what you're doing right now.
All right. Thanks, Morgan. And rich. Thanks for, uh, coming here and talking with me really appreciate it. Um, so yeah, my name is Jim Haber. I'm originally from Dallas, Texas. I went to school at the university of Michigan, and that's where I commissioned [00:32:30] into the United States Navy. Um, back in 2012, since then I've been stationed in Florida and San Diego, um, then Japan and now I'm stationed in Italy, in Naples Italy.
So, um, in general, I kind of view myself as like a normal guy that is, uh, just enthusiastic about the ongoing, sustainable and regenerative, uh, revolution, and just looking for ways for other everyday people. To [00:33:00] transition their daily, personal, or consumer or investing habits to more sustainable and regenerative ones.
So that's kind of led me down, you know, the, the benefit of being a, a, a talker or just a listener is that you can kind of zoom in and zoom out of all these different industries and, uh, and concepts at, at your, uh, you know, at your choosing. So it's, it's been pretty cool to just, you know, reach out to people and [00:33:30] have great, uh, great reception to people that, you know, seem like they were doing some pretty incredible things and were actually very willing to talk to me.
And, uh, and you know, like keep having the discussion. Um, yeah, it's really interesting to try to figure out where, where can I have the most impact and of course, You know, money does make the world go around. So finding these opportunities or exploring like which ones actually have impact, which ones are just mostly [00:34:00] hype and being greenwashed is really an exploration.
I think. So where, uh, when are some of your earliest memories of being passionate about sustainability? Um, so earliest memory, really, it kind of, it comes down to, uh, this, this documentary that I first watched, which was called food choices. And, um, my wife said, you know, I, I think you should watch this. You should just take a look, um, and let me know what you think she had watched it, like just [00:34:30] before, um, and ultimately like long story short it's, it's essentially about the benefits of a plant-based diet, um, which was not how I was eating whatsoever.
Um, it's not how we were eating. Um, but I did find it very interesting and that all of the preconceived notions and. Really like shallow, simple, uh, first tier arguments against that, um, or just very quickly deconstructed [00:35:00] and offered an alternative approach to it. Um, and there was, uh, a guy that they had speaking.
Who's very renowned throughout that, that movement. Um, T Colin Campbell, who has a book called the China study. And, um, so my background's in engineering, so I do really appreciate the data backing up the hype and the, and the, you know, all the pseudoscience or greenwashing, like if there's data to back it up then that definitely gets me more [00:35:30] interested.
And, uh, essentially that was, you know, he took a look at the, um, eating habits and health outcomes. Um, Populations all over China and compared it to the Western population, diet and health outcomes and came to some pretty eye-opening conclusions. Um, and you know, he, I think he did a really good job clarifying where that really, I mean, there's [00:36:00] like rich pointed out and you pointed out to Morgan, all this is very complicated and it's based on where you live, what you're exposed to, how you were raised, what you ate when you ate it.
Um, so a lot of these are simply correlations, but what he did really well, um, was he gave like the baseline reader, a very good definition of correlation versus causation, but also when things are so strongly correlated that you can start [00:36:30] to predict outcomes that had a pretty, uh, Pretty influential, um, impact on me so that I would say that was like the start.
Um, and you know, that was back in 2017. And since then I've gone through waves of eating, like really strict plant-based diets to just, you know, kind of eat and whatever, because we're living in Japan and Japan, you know, they do things differently and we were there to, you know, uh, experience [00:37:00] the lifestyle there and, um, yeah, just wanted to have a, have a well-balanced approach to it.
So, um, I think that kind of opened the door. And then, you know, as I considered, I shared with you previously, Morgan, that as, you know, former service members, you're always thinking about what that next step is and if you're going to take that next step for another tour or not. So, you know, as I came up to that first decision point, I found [00:37:30] myself asking, what am I going to do next?
Or, um, or whatnot, just to, you know, continue having an impact and possibly in a different way. Um, and I think that's how I got introduced to, um, just our, the overall food system and the impact that the soil has on our food system and the equity involved with that, or inequity involved with that based on where we're placing all of our, our systems.
So, you know, [00:38:00] acknowledging that the system is very complicated and, um, nuanced and regional and historical as well, both in good and bad things. I just found that it was something that I wanted to continue exploring in tandem with. My continued career in the Navy and, um, you know, just kind of develop it and find where that passion actually grows roots and, and start, you know, nourishing that definitely speaking of roots, [00:38:30] that's I think the, one of the main things that stands out to me about regenerative agriculture is that focus on building the soil.
And so this idea of using great, like planned grazing can certainly be a big advantage. When did you first start to shift from just the idea of, of your health and impact there to being curious about specifically regenerative agriculture? Right. Well, and I mean, you bring, you brought up a good point. Like [00:39:00] it's, it's not, it's not just about the, like, I think one thing that the, uh, that, that documentary did, was it, it struck at various chords that might be.
Might hit deeper for various people. It may, if for me in initially had a very immediate health impact. Um, and I, you know, I think when I described it, it was like six, it was about 60% health and maybe 30% about the environment because, you know, I selfishly I [00:39:30] think a lot of us prioritize ourselves over, like trying to do the feel-good thing.
Um, and we're having to make those decisions every day about what we put in our body. So I valued that, um, you know, and then like later, just as you see more and more how everything's interconnected, it, it draws you more to those other benefits, like how we treat the land and how we treat the animals. And, um, And in addition, you know, seeing people who [00:40:00] seem to be doing it right, I think that's what led me to discovering, um, the savory Institute and how unsavory and, you know, just kind of looking around at what they're doing.
They had a concept of holistic planned grazing, which, um, you know, various studies had shown that just doing the bare minimum without animal inputs. Um, wasn't having the same effect as having like rich pointed out, um, having animals [00:40:30] be that perfect combination of. Uh, organic matter that they're putting back into the soil with their microbes and what their bodies are capable of imparting back into the soil.
So I think it's really interesting, like something that you said earlier. Um, I also read the China study about 15 years ago and I did the kind of little bit yo-yo kind of thing. And, um, I've, you know, I've been a physical therapist now for 10 years, so, uh, obsessed about health and nutrition. [00:41:00] And I I'm the first to admit, I don't think anybody really knows at this point, there's just such conflicting evidence, but what one thing is pretty much universal is that getting to what rich said earlier is this notion of quality versus quantity, eat meat, don't eat meat, uh, be a vegan.
Don't be a vegan. Eat quality food versus just a lot of bulk of it. And then that's probably the 80% solution that, that would help us tremendously with our, [00:41:30] our sick population, I guess. So, yeah. All right. Well, I'm going to step out of this. I'm going to let you guys ask each other the questions and have some fun with this.
I'm really excited to listen to where this goes. So Jim, you're up. All right. Um, well, rich again, thanks for, thanks for talking to, uh, just, uh, honestly like just a regular guy. Um, I was looking through some resources online just to kind of prepare for the discussion. And I, I noted that you [00:42:00] had like a, a post recently that distinguished the people that are, that have dirt under their nails versus the people who are just talking about it.
And I will be the first to admit, I am totally just taught. This is the first time I've been talking about it really. Creeping and just listening for the most part. So, um, it's an honor to talk to someone who is actually doing it and feeding our country. So really appreciate that. Um, well thank you. And, uh, [00:42:30] thank you guys for, uh, having me on and, uh, yeah, I'm sorry.
Uh, I had a long night last night. Uh, what was the question again? Yeah, I, I didn't ask a question yet, but I just wanted to, I wanted to say thanks before I got into it and really you actually already addressed, um, one of them, um, because, so I was, I listened to another podcast that I think you were a guest on, um, where you had mentioned that [00:43:00] financing seems to be the challenge right now, getting.
How to connect the, the money to the, uh, to the people who are actually doing the doing. Um, and so I was, I was curious if you had seen any individual financing companies or strategies that, that are doing it right. Um, that those of us on the sidelines, um, and maybe some people who choose to ultimately stay on the sidelines can participate in from a personal financial standpoint, um, you know, index [00:43:30] funds or crypto or REITs, or some of these more traditional, um, investing options that maybe just haven't been brought to light.
And you brought up Nori earlier. Um, so that was the one that I was initially kind of interested in, but she wanted to see if you had any other, any other tips or, or, uh, companies maybe keep an eye on. I think I, I, I sort of embraced this idea [00:44:00] of the consumer doing more than. Just buying it, the cadre, I, uh, we've had a long tradition of in different co-ops going into the stores and visiting with people in person that are buying, that's buying her food and it's just such a more enriched type of relationship.
And I think that's what was meant to be, um, I think that we, that town square or the farmers would bring their products on the, on the market or just drop it off [00:44:30] at the grocery store. I think that people miss that connection with food, it's something that's very genetic to really be, um, involved in our gathering and processing and cooking them food because it's so critical to sustaining life.
Right? So like the very, the very basic thing that somebody could do is that you want to buy grass fed, then find somebody at [00:45:00] your local region. There's so many online grasping. People are so stressed that online, that, that that's just one little step that you could do is go directly to that farmer or rancher and try and buy the products directly from them if possible.
Okay. Um, but like I talked a little bit about Stewart. It's an amazing organization. There's another one, like, uh, anchor trader and another one called harvest harvest [00:45:30] return. And these are platforms that allow normal people to invest in agricultural projects. Um, I think that the, I think that the future is trimming more towards, uh, partnerships.
I, every year, the more I work at it, I see people are like, oh, I really want to have my hands. I want to meet that. Uh, during the nails veristic I want to have, uh, I want to actually have direct [00:46:00] impact. I don't, I don't want to passively support you. Money, which I want to get there and get my figure sturdy, be part of the decision-making progress.
And I see that becoming more and more of a model going forward. And I think that like, uh, Stuart acre, acre trader, I think that those were sort of the beginning of that kind of thing. And I think that, I think if you're, if you're looking out for, I think you should find somebody that local too, [00:46:30] or a group of people that's local to your food shed and try and figure out some project that you could get in on and, um, support and maybe get some returns on as a rancher.
Um, I'm more than happy to treat, uh, outside investor just as I would a banker. Um, probably more so if it's a project that, um, it's a new project or something, I would definitely like to bring in partners [00:47:00] that. Or more in for the long-term and more in it for the, uh, not just the returns, but for the, what it gives back to them, how it connects them back to nature, how it connected back to their food.
Right. Um, and I guess I have going back to the consumer, you know, buying grass fed one thing that one, one question I have with that is, um, you know, I've heard, of course, like the consumers becoming more [00:47:30] aware and making voting with their dollars is what, what you hear as the, the term. Um, but I've also heard people say, you know, consumers alone, aren't going to be the thing that, that changes things.
I don't know that I necessarily agree with that statement. I'm curious from your perspective, have you seen a change in, uh, and over the last five to 10 years, have you seen the consumers actually demand? Has that demand actually increased. [00:48:00] Uh, the consumer's awareness of, of what they're buying like are, is it, is that grass fed actually displacing the demand for conventionally raised cattle from, from your perspective from the, from the producer grass fed, um, would grow very quickly except for it has like a three year to commit to grasp it.
It's a three-year [00:48:30] commitment before you receive a receive a return. So you have to start with, I'll get back to that part. I want to answer your more direct question. How have I seen a change in trend? Yes. So I don't want to force isn't the right word, but having visited with customers for the last 30 years.
I started seeing a change in the trend in the [00:49:00] early two thousands. When there, like when I was getting questions about the feedlot and we were in a feed lot situation and, um, we really worked hard to keep those animals in the feedlot for the shortest amount of time. Some animals would go into a feedlot.
It'd be there. Well, over 200 days, we had ours down to nine and sometimes less. But what I got out of the store conversations is why are you in the feed? But the answers [00:49:30] first answer as well as, because that's the way it works. You're probably not in the right paradigm for work for the future is going. Um, and I couldn't really say, well, that's just how it is.
They're like, well, how come we can't eat grass fed from them? Well, we don't, that's not, we'd have to, it's a huge shift until our family explored. Just having that question over, over here, you had to start asking yourself questions. You had to say that that's the consumer [00:50:00] forcing you to think in a new paradigm.
And so we started asking ourselves these questions and we started exploring on a very small scale with different little grassfed groups and companies, and we'd send some and see how it worked. And, uh, about five years ago, we just started another grasping co-op. We didn't start out. We joined in with one and, uh, decided to, they decided it was time for them to start scaling.
And so we did, and I, now I'm very happy with [00:50:30] my conversations when I go into the store, the consumers give us amazing feedback and, um, just love the product. So yeah, the consumer is making a big shift for grass fed. Now on the regenerative agriculture side, the last couple of years, I don't think everybody is, has a.
Consensus on what regenerative agriculture is, and that we're having this really interesting debate, but it's gonna that's that like that early conversations that in store, we're [00:51:00] just starting to break down what the mind thinks is how it's going to work or what we've traditionally done and start looking at these other things.
It's a process, but maybe 15 years from now, it'll be a much different conversation. Right? Well, that's encouraging from someone who's been trying to, uh, you know, make the right decisions as many times as we can with the dollars that we have. So, um, I appreciate that, uh, that perspective, um, if we still have [00:51:30] some more time, one other question I had was, um, you had mentioned that, you know, your view on certifications.
Uh, kind of has this field, that it's largely just a vehicle for non farmers and ranchers to work their way into taking profits from, from you guys. So do you see anyone you'd mentioned Nori? Um, I don't know if that was the end all be all, but you see anyone in the regenerative movement that's doing it.
Right. And I think one thing that's interesting about [00:52:00] Nori was it seemed like they were eliminating a lot of the middle middlemen by doing things more automated. And you utilizing technologies such that you can cut a lot of the middle middlemen out, um, and, and finding the stakeholders who are good at gathering data and making meaning of data and actually quantifying the benefit you guys are, are, uh, bringing to the soil.
Is that, is that accurate? And do you feel, [00:52:30] yeah, yeah. I'm don't have to try to live all this because I want to answer one question. As far as the soil, what people, what, okay. Yeah, I got old. So every time I look at certification companies, mostly as marketing company, um, and they have to put together this package and they said, well, our team does the best soil monitoring.
[00:53:00] Um, that's why we're the ones that should be certifying you. But here's the fact there is a tremendous network of soil labs all across the United States. Right now that any Farber, even me, I didn't even go and grab a soil sample. The directions are very clear, put it in a cooler and send it to whoever I want.
I send mine to award laboratories in Nebraska. I might send some down to. Central Texas where they, uh, the Haney soil test is, [00:53:30] was originated from, and the guy that came up with it, still testing soil. I don't need a middleman to do my soil test. So I, if they want to verify it, but I'm not going to pay somebody to come out and do something that I can do.
And that farmers and restaurants have been doing for years. There's this entire regional thing. I also don't want to cut out my local guy or the guy I've been using any soil. There's no, there's no innovation, innovation or soil sample. There's just different ways that you put it together and market it.
[00:54:00] So, yeah, Nori allows you to work with who you're comfortable with and, um, and they, they take that. They, if it's a recognized lab, it's a recognized lab and you don't have to go anything to anything special, but they've bet it. And they know that the, whatever that lab is giving you is good. And, um, the data that's going back and they have, they put a certain amount of trust in the farmer.
And so most other carbon [00:54:30] markets, uh, markets, uh, there's all, you have to have somebody spell like indigo, they test all, they do all the tests. So they go to an indigo lab and then they, um, recommend indigo products. And they don't, sometimes in some cases they don't even like the bare system. They don't even give you the cash back.
They traded their, uh, their chemical and, uh, farming Sweden [00:55:00] products. So sounds like they're vertically integrated. Yeah. Yeah. So it's an interesting thing. So, um, I, I don't, I'm not bashing my certification company, but, um, I did a desktop stick with somebody in New York. So somebody from New York during COVID, I'll say, I'll give you.
To get certified. I sent in a bunch of paperwork about stuff I'm doing in Southeastern Oregon. And, [00:55:30] uh, the lady that was in New York, we didn't even have the same normal nomenclature as far as what we were talking about as far as the different things that they require. Um, and she's never going to come out and look at my operation.
I mean, used to be the certification companies would actually come, but I don't foresee the future of that going. So basically I'm paying somebody to certify me that I need to educate on my, on my particular environment and [00:56:00] climate and my business operations account at a cow high desert cow calf operation that gets six to eight inches of rain a year versus where she's sitting in New York and looking at, um, uh, 34 pair or 34 cow calf operation or some steers in the field.
It just. It's really hard for me as a producer to get certification from [00:56:30] somebody that has no idea, um, what my scope is of what my business model is, all that guy stuff. Basically. I always see it as they create a lot of paperworks and I, uh, pay them a lot of money and then the, everybody feels good about it, except for the guy that's paying all the money and doing all the work.
Right. And, uh, you know, I was [00:57:00] wondering also, if, you know, I don't know if you. If you don't feel comfortable answering this because you have too many buddies, um, and context in your, uh, in your local area, but is that not, you know, one of the functions that the USDA, the local offices and the NRCS should be fulfilling for you as that local, um, extension so that they understand the climate, they understand the limitations, um, and can kind of bridge that gap, or is that, [00:57:30] is that the ideal idealistic view of it?
And in practice, it's not really, you're still telling someone in New York. I love, uh, I love the USDA here. We worked on, uh, irrigation products that, um, increased, uh, not only made our water uses more efficient, but increased the amount of, uh, ruddy duck habitat during their mating season that was available to them on our fields because we live on a giant flyway that goes up to Canada.
[00:58:00] Millions of birds that come through. So a lot of my work with the NRCS is to facilitate those birds as they're coming as they're going north and coming south. So, um, that's just a little ecological service that my ranch provides and I could see a really functional carbon market that was, uh, bedded or, uh, certified by the NRCS.
They already have the soil maps and the question of a soil data. Um, they're really the, [00:58:30] and then I would be happy to if they, to work through them, to get verified, that kind of stuff. Um, I don't know why, where we got so many people certifying it. Um, it's such an unique thing. Um, in other industries, if you have a certification company, uh, or a certification process, it's usually a process that was developed by, um, peer groups in the end.
Yeah. [00:59:00] I think in agriculture, the only certification, the only place where it's not, it's developed by people coming into agriculture, rather than people that are already in it. And of course every board has a token farmer or something, but that doesn't mean that, that they have one perspective. That's very unique to their region in their business.
That really doesn't help me very much when they're advising a certification board that has no experience in agriculture and I don't [00:59:30] necessarily, and it seems to be the celebrity guys that get on the board. And, uh, so it really tends to alienate the, just the regular worker day agriculture. Cool rich, that, that sounds like, uh, one of our earlier podcasts, we actually had Paul Gamble from Nori, um, paired up with a Midwestern comedian who advocates for farmers quite frequently.
And the gist of the conversation was that farmers don't have time. A lot of farmers don't have the time, or, [01:00:00] you know, they're kind of swamped as is. And these making sense of all the paperwork and putting all these extra certifications. And if it takes years to see the benefits and then they don't have the, the bridge loan or the financing to do it, then it's, it's just sometimes left behind because it's just too much work.
I can give you a great example of, uh, these kinds of projects. So we work with a Mennonite gentleman in Idaho that [01:00:30] raises he's one of the very first guys that raised cover crops for, with us. We worked with him and the NRCS and some really cool, innovative. As far as just seeing how many, what crops can sequester the most carbon that the cattle can eat, um, and what kind of turnaround he can get on his cash crop.
And they're really doing some deep, uh, a case study on it. Um, but he's very innovative and he wanted to switch to agriculture takes and have these big guts, [01:01:00] get this big storage to run two of his 40, uh, 40 gallon, 40 horse, 40 horsepower pumps. So he's got it all set up. The whole project cost $800,000, which he had to front everything in the front before he got any, um, he, he will get government subsidies.
I'm not going to say it happened, but he had to make the initial $800,000 investment to make it all work. So, um, now he's getting the offset and power, so he's [01:01:30] not having to pay to run those pumps anymore, which probably saved. I'll probably tend to $30,000 a year. I don't know that it's specific, so he doesn't get a car.
He sells that back into the grid and then in return, he gets to pump for free. He doesn't get any money in return money back, but it's a good system, but not me. If she wants me, people have the margins in agriculture who make a $800,000 investment in, uh, their [01:02:00] irrigation system so that they can, uh, make it more sustainable.
Yeah, that, that is, that seems like quite a lot to be able to put up front. So what were you saying earlier that some of these, uh, webs, is it a micro lending platform or a ha acre traders or harvest return? What exactly were those? They, um, they've find like, so anchor traders are mostly in the Midwest, um, and they go out and find different projects that [01:02:30] will work for their them.
And then they get people to fund it. And me, usually they fund about one every month and it doesn't take very long, um, harvest returns, more, uh, people bring them projects that we're working on and then try and, uh, rally investors around their, their project case by case project for harvest returns. Yes.
Very cool. Very cool. Yeah. I know there's a lot of people that want to [01:03:00] do to make some impact in this way, but they live in cities and they're probably either one of they're tied to the city because of their work. And then the chances of them actually being in an area where food is actually produced is probably pretty small.
So developing those relationships at a personal level might be challenging. And it's good to know. There are some hopefully reliable platforms to connect people.
I've been watching all, everything that I've all the ones that have [01:03:30] been shows I've been watching for a long time and talked to quite a few of them. And, uh, yeah, there, I, I think they're after two to three years, they're all pretty legit and, uh, Nori has lots of struggles, but, um, I think if anyone, if any, group's going to come out on top of that, they will be.
And I think they're in it for the right reason. Yeah, we agree too. That's amazing. We could talk forever, but I would like to get to the last two questions. So this is a show for outdoor [01:04:00] lovers. Rich, can you share with us one of your best outdoor adventures?
Oh, wow.
Um, I, I have, I'm pretty fortunate in the fact that I, uh, I'm in the outdoors a lot and I. I, the thing that I've really started to appreciate in my later life is, uh, the birds. Um, I don't know [01:04:30] why when you're a kid, you don't see them, but, um, every day I get to go see the tremendous amount of birds that come through our ranch and, uh, stay in the canal, just in that greater area.
And, um, every time I just, one time I thought I couldn't even count them. I know I figured there was probably at least 700 to a million different and they were there population wise, but there was probably four or five different species in there [01:05:00] and they were just covering the valley floor. And, um, I just think how fortunate we are that we can see that things are bad, but we haven't.
It just gives you, it gives you, um, motivation to maintain and preserve that because, uh, so many choices we make were. A lot of people saying we've hit a tipping point and we're going to hit a tipping point. And I, I sincerely believe that, but I [01:05:30] think that that's the nice thing about tipping points is that it's really easy to write it.
I think that, um, yeah, I was just like, I hope that my son will be able to see the same thing. So anyway, I hear ya for sure. So, I mean, as a cattle rancher, I'm curious, have you heard of the Alma, all MAB tribe butchering the German there, but it's the festivals in the Alps where they bring the Alpine cows down from the high mountains into the [01:06:00] valleys and they have a giant party and they dress the cows up and flowers.
Oh yeah. I've seen pictures of that. Yeah.
They, they bring them up in the spring and then they are in around late mid September. They bring them back down. So. Yeah, it's amazing how high they go. Do they, are there any festivals like that in the west where, you know, moving cattle or is it all kind of just so remote that it's not really [01:06:30] possible?
Um, well we have burning man. Um, uh,
it's sort of an inside joke because it's only about 30 miles from where I met probably maybe 45 miles as the Crow flies from where I'm at. So every year, so for an event migration, the brain better. So it's a festival that's very much on our mind and I love it to death. It's a great organization, [01:07:00] but you know, yeah.
We've had harvest dinners, but it's probably not that big celebration that brings in more, um, people from the food shed in the regional area. Um, I, I have lived in communities where there. They have multiple celebrations of the different parts of the agriculture, like, uh, Northern Washington, north central Washington, that has a real nice mix of, uh, hippies and ranchers, uh, [01:07:30] uh, retired, Boeing executives, Microsoft guys that they, uh, formed this really cool little community.
And, uh, they celebrate the food and, uh, the local food all the time, but then they have dinners and have speakers and all that kind of stuff. So, um, I think that would be a great boom to, I think that now that you said, I think that, uh, agriculture community should work more on their festivals and maybe have Oriente it more from an outside perspective than just [01:08:00] a community, uh, grass fed burning man, every September.
Maybe not, maybe not quite so wild, but more family oriented. Yes, I'm sure we do a lot to improve the awareness and get some people who don't really have. They don't understand even what a grass fed beef product is. That that could be really interesting. I'll come, let me know. I want, I need to get back to Idaho anyway.
All right. [01:08:30] And Jim, how about you? What's your favorite outdoor adventure? Um, the, the one that comes to mind is being able to climb Mount Shasta. Um, and that's in Redding, California, like three and a half hours north of San Francisco. Um, now it was like one of the first times that I, you know, got the whole, you know, I've hiked.
I had hiked before. Um, but this was like the first time getting crampons and snowshoes and trekking poles and Saks and yeah, I mean, I was [01:09:00] not. Prepared, but I had a good guide, a good friend that, uh, that took me. And, um, I've actually gone twice and have not submitted once, which is about on par with the stats.
It's about a one in three attempt. Um, you'll, you'll get a summit and it was, uh, it was that buddy who had a really good perspective on it. He just, you know, reminded me that it was just about being out there. Um, and summiting is just the cherry on top, [01:09:30] um, which I feel like gave me a good perspective on, you know, moving overseas and doing all these other things like traveling and planning and just having expectation management and just enjoying the journey and not worrying so much about the destination, uh, right.
Isn't that the beauty of the great outdoors, it gives us so many opportunities to learn these lessons. And then if you can apply it to other parts of your life, it's, there's just something about mountains, the sea, the planes. [01:10:00] All of a sudden you're reminded that you're just one small spec and the point of this round table is to preserve it.
So our kids and grandkids can still, you know, be in nature and be in the outdoors and be inspired to do something better. So, absolutely. Yeah. All right, Jim, if the listeners want to get ahold of you, where should they go? Um, they can just reach out the email. It's Jim haber@gmail.com [01:10:30] or on LinkedIn. Yeah.
And I'll put everything in the show notes and rich, if people want to learn more about your operations with the grass fed beef, with the different investing opportunities and different projects for carbon, et cetera, where should they get ahold of you? Um, you can, uh, go check out our, uh, grasping companies, a website.
Does it run grass, fed beef, uh, and, um, Also, I'm really active on LinkedIn. And, um, I think my phone number and my [01:11:00] email are both on my contact list, so, um, I usually always respond and, uh, try and accommodate any requests. So, um, talk about this kind of stuff. So, um, yeah, that's where you can, uh, follow me.
Awesome. Well, thank you guys. I really appreciate your time and it's so cool to be able to connect all around the world like this. I rate you guys. Absolutely. Yeah. All right. Thanks Morgan. Thanks. I'd like to [01:11:30] visit more, but I got to go. Hi.
Okay. All right, Tim. Thank you. Yeah. Thanks for setting this up. That was very, very cool. Super happy to be part of it. All right. Have a good one.