Is 3-D concrete printing houses the way of the future? We explore the nuances of it's potential to disrupt the construction market, carbon footprint, and our guests' connection to the Great Outdoors.
We also have some killer conversation on how to make Martian concrete!
Helicopter pilot & investor James Gray asks the hard questions of Werner Bittner, former CEO of Umdasch Group Ventures on this in-depth roundtable about 3-D Construction Printing.
Sponsored by Aspiration Bank & Sustainable Investors Group
Did you know it’s projected that 3 billion people in the next 50-70 years are expected to move from being poor to middle class in this world and they will not only demand better places to live, but start to emit carbon like we do in the West?
Enter: 3D Construction Printing.
Seas to Swim In: 3d Construction Printing Benefits
Affordability: If building codes are adopted, scale is possible as the robot is fast with walls and lumber prices have skyrocketed the past year with no signs of dipping anytime soon.
Sustainability: Built to last vs stick builds. Concrete homes are generational. No waste. Minimise amount of concrete needed vs poured concrete with hollow walls. No plywood forms. Low transportation emissions due to less workers needed on site.
Speed. The Robots can work very fast to make walls. MEP planned in BIM ahead of time and less time on site for skilled trades.
Labor: 2-3 person teams is all that’s needed for walls. Every 30 min or so they stick in some metal reinforcements and walls are erected in 24-48 printing hours for a 200 sq. meter home.
Safety: less human injuries due to robot.
Style: Curved lines and textured walls are not significantly more expensive the rectangles, letting a modern and interesting aesthetic be applied to non-luxury properties.
Mountains to Climb: 3d Construction Printing Challenges
Material Mixtures: The so-called Ink for most printers is 3-10 times cost of poured concrete. Often they rely on extra cement which increases the embodied carbon. Many mixtures are proprietary so you don’t even know what’s in it. Can they be locally sourced to reduce transportation costs?
Regulation: Building codes are built in blood and hard to change, but work is being done now and 2022 has big promise to include 3D printed walls as load bearing but for now each building is a special case permit.
Semi-Automation: Currently the robots only can manage walls. Fully autonomous house building is still some time in the future but these companies including Contour Crafting Corporation are not only planning Earth scale construction automation but Martian too. So cool!
Initial Investment: the robot costs 5-800K according to Werner and there may be other robot arm styles that are cheaper, but it doesn’t yet produce a turnkey home. so construction management and skilled trades are needed to coordinate and unlike other products that are automated you really need a lot of coordination for your final product.
Carbon: Stick built, bamboo, mass timber all have lower embodied carbon than concrete because of the cement needed. But if mixtures for 3D have more aggregates vs cement that will improve it’s and considering the average lifespan of concrete houses vs stick built, it’s not exactly an easy equation.
Thanks again to Werner and James to help us unpack this.
Yes, you heard that right. Today in the US, Germany, India, Africa and more You can 3d print houses, commercial buildings.
Imagine a giant robot that looks like a toothpaste tube or maybe more like an icing funnel that races along much faster than a pastry chef spewing out concrete in layer upon layer to create the walls of a house that will last generations?
We explore all that we even have some killer conversation on how to make Martian concrete!
Expect in depth discussions about the Outdoors, the pros and cons of 3d construction printing what makes a home or building sustainable from European and American perspectives.
Featuring search and reduce helicopter pilot James Gray — who between flying duty over the Dolomites from his AF base in Italy, managing a portfolio of US short term rental properties and raising 3 kids enrolled in local Italian schools.
And now he is exploring how to make impact for the planet and his portfolio by asking the hard questions of our other guest, Werner Bittner.
He's the former CEO of Umdasch Group Ventures and previous chairman of the board of Contour Crafting Corporation based in CA. With it’s roots in research and patents since 1994, this company has not only sold military grade 3d printers to the US army corps of engineers but also has a civilian model to print the walls of houses and commercial buildings.
CC specializes in using a concrete mixture that has coarse aggregates making it more sustainable and cheaper “ink" than other models.
As always, lots of nuance, collaboration, and abundant brainstorming to make this awesome world even better.
Welcome to the Summit Roundtable: Expanding Your 3d Printing Horizons.
Get in touch with James Gray
Get in touch with Werner Bittner email whb@contourcrafting.com
Learn how your green can grow more green for your portfolio and the planet! Visit us here for everything you need to know: www.sustainableinvestorsgroup.com
Schedule a call where we can discuss your investing needs, outdoor adventure plans, or just to get to know each other.
Special thanks to James Gray and Werner Bittner for taking the time to share so many great insights with us.
If you enjoyed this podcast, there’s a couple of things we need you to do right now:
Then, please share the show with whoever you think it will inspire.
Until the next time, Climb Your Mountains.
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Expanding your 3D Print Horizons into Concrete Houses
[00:00:00] Welcome to the summit round table
and we're going to be discussing the topic of 3d printed construction burner. Thanks for coming. How are you today? Thank you very much. Um, I'm fine. Curious about the discussion we will have. Yeah, absolutely. can you give us a little background about your involvement with 3d printed construction well, actually my, backup is a very conservative one in the sense of, I have been in executive and top management roles [00:00:30] in established, industries.
When I started to occupy myself a little bit with 3d printing and I did this generally, so regardless of the material, I started off actually with, plastics and metals. So for a D printing with metals and plastics, and also. Uh, organic printing of Oregon, stuff like that. And then I jumped on a 3d construction printing, which is completely different in many ways, but maybe I can elaborate on that later, later when we were signed out together.
werner: and, [00:01:00] then, um, I joined a new company and, actually I was co-founding third division, additional to the two historically established ones. And this, uh, those group ventures, that is the name of this entity. only occupied itself with, potentially disruptive, technologies and business models along holistic, construction processes, and this led to an investment among other things in a 30% investment in country [00:01:30] crafting cooperation, which is, a company based in Los Angeles.
and the founder professor Christian Davis is a very well-known in the internet and in the U S especially, he's a Dean's professor, at, university of Southern California. And he's actually the pioneer in the sector because, he started out with, his continual crafting philosophy as early as in 1994, received the first patents in 1996.
So old patents from this time have expired. Meanwhile, because they, [00:02:00] the life span of the pet then is 20 years max. Right. And then he set up, his company, came to craft and corporation, in , 2014. we, had our closing in 2017, can you explain the process of 3d construction printing for people not familiar with it?
Well, I think most of us, meanwhile, I have an idea for 3d printing in general, right? So, you see, or you have certainly seen one or the other video or [00:02:30] products of a plastic, uh, object or a metal object. Right? And this is the difference because typically in a, in a printing, a 3d printer, a complete object is printed, That's the, one of the main differences, between the other material, 3d printing sectors and, 3d construction printing because 3d construction printing, as of now, you can only print the walls. So the foundations, you have to do the traditional [00:03:00] way to foundations lab, same thing, florists, same thing, roofs, same thing.
So actually, as of now only walls can be printed. there are also many, many different, attempts and the technological approaches how to do it. And in my opinion, there are some of them will not prevail for technical and, economical reasons and others, have a good chance to do so. Right.
Right. What do people get wrong about [00:03:30] 3d construction printing? in my opinion, my opinion 3d construction, pink printing is only part of the story. I think in the future for construction printing needs to be combined. With, uh, automation. And this is exactly the come to crafting concept as, published in, uh, by professor Krishna in 1994.
What does that mean? That means that while the building is printed Ultima, basically all other [00:04:00] elements you need for house, because we all want to move in a house, right? This occurred to crafting approach is actually combination of 3d printing and automation.
So bringing in, for instance, tiling, roofing, electricity, water, uh, joints, pipes and wiring and everything you can think of. So in the result, this should mean that, the robot is producing a closed turn, key home or [00:04:30] object or high rise, this brings the highest productivity change, in comparison to the established traditional processes.
Absolutely construction seems to be one of the few industries that's not automated .
morgan: Do you think that 3d construction, , , is it viable as far as cost, time and quality to begin the process of building homes?
werner: I think it will in the near future, some of the approaches are already potentially [00:05:00] some others definitely. In my opinion, definitely are not
but I see a big future in, uh, 3d construction printing in mainly two sectors, which is residential homes. and, commercial buildings. I don't see it in other kind of buildings and options. maybe over decades, but I even doubt this. how far off are we for residential homes for 3d construction printing too?
We can do it. And it's it's and it's been done. the problem [00:05:30] is, that, the regulatory situation. Right? Right, exactly. So, as of now 3d construction printing is not part of any building code in any country, state province, whatever on deployment. there are two processes to go there and reach it.
one has been started actually by, contour crafting in, uh, I think it was two years ago when we were approached by ICNC the international code council [00:06:00] and, I think it was in June, 2019, a so-called acceptance criteria. Five online was accepted by especial board of the ICC evaluation service.
and this actually resulted in the first norm where it's clearly stated, what does it need in order to get, a so-called evaluation report, which is, a successful execution of AC five of mine. And this is, uh, actually the precondition to go anywhere and get the [00:06:30] building permit in, within a regular building, permitting process.
And that's actually the target, because if you cannot obtain. It building permit in a standard, regular permitting process. There is actually no market because you always, depend on a single case permit, right? It's not financially viable for builders right now to just put up a 3d house. I mean, for demonstrational effects.
Yes. And I need to do it because of that, but the first year we're allowed to do it and then you need to be [00:07:00] able to do it. And then, and then, you know, you need to be able to aloud and do it in an economic way. And this is what I call the innovation triathlon marathon. Right. Yeah. I understand if there's so much buzz right now about 3d printing with these demonstration houses, I even saw one, built out of clay in Italy and it had a sort of a natural aesthetic to it, [00:07:30] you know, but.
After speaking with that company, they're there years out from getting permits and coding to accept it as anything other than a demonstration. do you think that there is a mindset shift that needs to happen for more people to adopt this technology? That's at the sort of cutting edge and implement it into the local zoning and coding laws?
Well, first of all, that's on the way. I think it should be done within a year's time, maybe two [00:08:00] years down the road. so once a building codes are available, and permits can be obtained in the standard permitting process, then you have at least from a regulatory standpoint, you have the market right then comes.
Of course. The second question is how much does it cost me to get my house 3d printed, whereas. stick stick-built, any other traditional form of construction. And that of course will clarify [00:08:30] the economic aspects. Of course, I'm sure there will be many people or at least some people who say, well, I don't care whether this costs me 20, 30% more, but I can claim that I'm living in a 3d printed hall.
Right. However, if it, if it wants to become a mainstream and of course that should be the target, then of course you should be cheaper than the established processes and technologies.
morgan: Right. And there's also another sector [00:09:00] of the market. I think that is going for the sustainability aspect. Can you speak to any benefits as far as, reducing carbon.
Or using less cement. are there things that are special about 3d printing that make it more sustainable than the traditional? Well, yes and no. I mean, the strongest argument in favor of, 3d construction printing is the lack of manual labor to some degree. Right? So lack of manual labor means less [00:09:30] commuters last CO2 emissions by a cars, just from people, many, many people who come and go to construction sites, the second thing is that, if we're really talking about a realization before realization of, to crafting meaning a combination of 3d printing and automation, this means also that, , everything can be done much, much faster. and this by itself, means less carbon footprint. the problem I see so far is, is in the material and the printed material.
werner: So [00:10:00] here, the benefit definitely is that, as an utter 3d printing technology or field, you only print what you need. So you have less waste typically unless you make a mistake cross mistake, but the technology itself, is, uh, designed in a way to just print what you need. however, it doesn't matter what the material you're printing consists of. So if we compare it with poured concrete, which is the traditional concrete way of, construction homes, [00:10:30] we have a certain given, composition of this poured concrete. So typically, standard pood concretes consists of about 41%, of course, aggregates Grable.
Uh, you have about 26% of fine aggregates sand. Then you have a think at 16, around 16% water, you have 11% Portland cement and you have about 6% a year. So, whatever, James, you have seen, in your videos, [00:11:00] when you mentioned before we started our talk, everything you saw was not concrete. It was special motors and special motors lack course aggregates.
So you have to find a replacement for 41% off the stuff, right? And typically this is substituted by more cement and more sand. So this increases nature relate to CO2 footprint because cement is, one of the, products, which has been [00:11:30] given a bad name recently regarding sustainability and CO2, which I find is multiple, the justified.
because there are studies available, which proves that concrete is actually much, much better than, as people think.
morgan: Hmm. Can you elaborate on that? I've read that 30 somewhere between 30 and 40% of the world emissions is due to the built environment and of that eight per 8% is due to concrete.
, well, first of all, about, uh, what I've read is that, human made, [00:12:00] emissions CO2 emissions are four or five to 5% of the complete total CO2 emissions, emissions are human mate, right? And all of those four to 5%, I think seven to 8% are allocated to the production of summits globally.
Right. so yes . It is a significant footprint. Yes. And also, um, uh, your earliest statement is, correct. I think it's even more, I think, uh, 40 to 50% of [00:12:30] all CO2 emissions are allocated to housing building, uh, infrastructure and everything that is connected to that. But that of course involves much, much more than just cement and concrete.
It's, it's just everything that happens within the CDs or urban, uh, areas. but if we come back to the cement, the thing is that, I think there are a certain measures of many people are working on reducing the amount of cement in concrete, of course, without [00:13:00] losing this fantastic, material properties,
, so. Uh, come to crafting corporation, in my opinion, is the only company that is really able to print with concrete, including course aggregates. so it's maybe not 11% Portland than Matt, a little bit more, but it's certainly a much, much less than we can naturally find in motors to my, in my opinion, at least, right.
The visual is pretty astounding. It does look like a robot spewing layer upon layer of [00:13:30] toothpaste. And you don't see the little particles of rocks or gravel in there. Is that what sets contour crafting apart is the larger grain size that can pass through the yeah. Yes, of course it's not trivial to be able to do so.
Yeah, it has a very Jetsons like feel to it. So in the future, do you see us making astronaut houses on Mars with a 3d printer? Yes, definitely. That's a actually the only way to do it and come to crafting we're actually [00:14:00] professor Chris nevus has received two NASSA grant prices, which were actually related to, 3d construction printing on Mars.
first of all, it is pretty obvious that, you cannot afford, we cannot afford bringing building materials from earth to Mars. The cost will kill you instantly. So that, and that was playing to see so that the task was how can we print with an autonomous, 3d printing, the advice on Mars with NCTR [00:14:30] materials.
Yeah. Um, and Mars, the surface of Mars obviously has, learned from professors. Nevus has a sulfur. I think up to 50% of the surface is made of sulfur. So, what he came up with is a, x-ray a thermal process of printing, in the, in the result is Marsh margin concrete. That's at least the name. and it has to be an autonomous process because just because of the timeline, right.
I think it's 80, 80 minutes [00:15:00] to signals or any signal from earth to Mars, is traveling over eight minutes once. So, and back of course. Right? So whatever you see on, earth is it's the past, right? It cannot, really, uh, operate in a, in a, in a real time mode. The possibilities are endless. It's, I just can't wait to see where this goes.
One other aspect of this is, sequestering carbon. So [00:15:30] I know there's a lot of technology to try to sequester carbon in rocks, for example, and other materials. Do you see a potential in the future where it could be engineered that some of the rocks that had the CO2 sequestered in it were actually used as part of the mixture?
I don't want to exclude it. And of course it would be very, very interesting to do so. however I think, I think there's no way around of really getting CO2 out of our environmental ear and put it [00:16:00] somewhere, store it safely or reuse it in a materialized, physical form. , I've seen pretty recently, on LinkedIn, a very interesting approach from the company based in Iceland.
and, I shared this actually, because I really find it interesting because in my experience, or in my opinion, if we look back in history, all major problems, humans had, were overcome finally by technology. [00:16:30] So science of technology, I think will also be key in overcoming our CO2 climate change thing.
talking about climate change, I think we should be aware that, uh, never ever on this planet was a state of constant climate. So climate change to some degrees nature of the deal. The question is what is our share of it, right? And of course it's wise to reduce, uh, this year, , to the bare minimum.
Yeah, get [00:17:00] frustrated when people talk about problems with climate change, as a political thing, I see it as an engineering problem. It's simply too much CO2 in the sky and we need to put it somewhere. And how fantastic. If it could hit, you know, two or three birds with one stone, you know, if it could help solve the housing crisis, it could help investors get good returns if make it sort of a circular thing.
But Verna and we love to get to know our guests a little bit. Can you share what it was like around the dinner table as a child? [00:17:30]
interestingly, my father was, where actually he spent practically all of his professional life into some and industry. So I grew up in cement plants, I have a pretty good, approach to this, product base. and it was fun. It was fun for many reasons. It was first of all, then adventure, right.
To, to travel those plants. And, also in the quarries, uh, I was driving my, my Ranglin sheep when I was far too young to be able to do so officially on efficient streets. [00:18:00] And I'm living, shortly outside of the city limits of Vienna. So, uh, who has been to Vienna knows that there are large Vietnamese forests and, this is where I live.
So I have, I'm spoiled by the combination of living, on a countryside, but, uh, within the very, very few kilometers I'm right in the heart of a, of a 2 million, people, uh, city that's one of the main reasons I love living in Germany is that access to the countryside. So close to where you live and you can [00:18:30] get into nature really quickly.
Well, I'd like to invite on James Gray, he's a entrepreneur and investor and a search and rescue helicopter pilot for the United States air force. Welcome James. Thanks, Morgan. Yeah. Happy to be here. This is exciting stuff. Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit about your investing and your businesses?
Yeah, absolutely. I guess it goes way back actually to the standard, uh, lawnmowing business when I was in middle school. perhaps even [00:19:00] younger than that. So haven't thought about this in awhile, but you know, when I was younger, I wanted to, to have a little extra cash to be able to probably buy video games or candy or whatever else.
I remember. Being, stuck in this model where I couldn't mow outside of where I could walk with my lawnmower and, my, my stepfather at the time. And my mother helped me, pretty much just build a small little bracket that I could put on the back of my bike under my seat post. And I would, I had a lawn mower with the big wheels in the back, so I could [00:19:30] turn it around and prop it up at the right angle to where the handles would fit in that bracket under my seat post.
And I would ride my bike, dragging my lawnmower and then my market, you know, just quadrupled cause I could get to it on my bike. I guess like my entrepreneurial spirit probably started back then and I didn't know it at the time. it has since grown into, um, I just have a love for real estate. I like the dynamics of it.
I like the tangible aspect of it. And, uh, I've kind of coupled that with a bit of my military [00:20:00] experience. And, I co founded a company that provides short term rental options to traveling military members. that's been going for about five years now, my wife and I have purchased properties that we have rented out subsequently sold.
So we've gone through the full life cycle of that and made all the mistakes that you probably can imagine as first time home buyers and first time landlords, and then first time home sellers. and, and now it's just trying to expand that, that aperture of what else is out there. And, and what kinda, [00:20:30] what strikes me now is how can I couple it with more than just.
Investing or just real estate,
Yeah. That's fantastic. Can you remember, uh, one of your earliest memories about being passionate about sustainability? Yeah. So, uh, here's the confession, right?
So I, I grew up mainly in Texas. and unfortunately I didn't have a lot of thoughts of sustainability for whatever reason the land was vast.
So, I didn't really start to think about a lot of these items until, uh, I [00:21:00] moved to Europe. Prior to the military. I actually worked in England for a while and got to travel a lot and it took traveling for me to kind of understand that there's much more to this than maybe what I could see with my original adolescent eyes.
I had to witness the Europeans get very creative. Uh, when you don't have space, you don't have this endless amount of land or even protecting what beautiful land you do have. Like both of you just describe between Germany and Austria. that kind of keyed me in [00:21:30] on it. that , we have a duty to try to protect a lot of that and figure out a better way to live in that cycle.
Like you described. where we all kind of get after the things in a very, like thought provoking manner to where it's sustainable in nature so that our future generations can also enjoy these, these beautiful things that we have. Uh, so it has been much later in life, but now it's roaring inside of me and having kids and being in Europe.
We'll, we'll also, uh, we'll do that to ya. It'll just show you that, you know, there's more than you probably [00:22:00] need to get out.
absolutely. , it seems unnatural to try to separate the economic from the environmental, from the social, because they all are interconnected.
And like you said, when you travel, you see a different way of doing things, . But can you explain a recent deal with real estate that you've researched lately?
, my wife and I have fallen in love with, with Northern Italy. it has really become part of our family.
Our children go to school and the Italian school system here, even though I'm stationed, on a military base, that's co owned both Italian [00:22:30] and United States air force, but. The, uh, the Italian culture is very live in our house. I kind of joke, but if you ask my kids, they will sometimes actually respond to, they are Italian instead of American.
and they read books in Italian now and, and they can talk secret code because mom and dad don't quite understand it as well as they can speak it. . So, my wife and I are starting to really get into a deep dive of, Italian properties and, and what that life could look like for us from an investment standpoint.
And it's very selfish in nature because we [00:23:00] want this, you know, we want a place that we can come back and still experience some of these amazing things that we've been exposed to these last couple of years. but we also want to be sure that it makes economic sense to,
um, so we, uh, we're digging into a few apartments that we found near the base here and try to figure out if there's a way to take a similar model to what I already provided in the States to possibly some, uh, members here, in Northern Italy, so that we do have that option and it's furnished, [00:23:30] and then we could, we can come back and reminisce.
So, yeah, absolutely. So basically you're looking at an investment, of, uh, an apartment that you can use as a short-term rental to other Americans that are going to be traveling to, and from this particular air force base, that's the thought.
Yep. .
I love it. I love this theme of, Trying to put two things together that don't quite make sense. So on that note, trying to put two things together, 3d printing and construction. I'd love to open up this round table discussing, you know, the [00:24:00] cost time and quality, the viability of residential and commercial buildings with, 3d construction between James and burners.
So I'll just step out and let you guys talk it out. Bernard, if you don't mind, I'm going to start with the big question first, what is the perfect end state for 3d printing construction? Like what does that world look like to you?
Whether it's 10 years from now, or a hundred years from now, what is the potential? What does that in-state? My vision is actually the perfect realization of console [00:24:30] crafting, meaning that turnkey, key homes, objects, whatever the size, whatever the, the sector is, can be provided, within, let's say two to three months from starting construction to moving it. the material I have in mind is indeed concrete, uh, and that just actually delaying the process a little bit because a concrete needs certain time to cure just can't be chemically enhanced, but only to some degree.
And this is actually [00:25:00] the reason why it cannot be quicker than that probably. but I think, if you are traveling alone and, uh, let's say if you're living in a certain neighborhood, then you're a way two to three months. And you come back, you might be surprised that you find a new village in your neighborhoods.
So that's a, that's something I, I really can think of, uh, in the next, let's say 10 years, right? Maybe, maybe even less, we typically are surprised, by the fact that the technology advancement [00:25:30] advancements are happening quicker than we anticipate that increasingly, I guess. But I think the trick is really to make it, uh, not only possible and, uh, and also from the authorities authorized, but also to make it, economically viable because this is what actually, sets the table for, for a new product.
Because you have something new as well. I'll teach you see this, they printed a house. Well, actually nobody's printing a house, but you know, once this wow effect, you know, has [00:26:00] vanished, and you take your chest, you calculate it in your hand and say, okay, what does this cost, how long does it take?
What is the quality and what is, the other, what is the result or day the results, uh, from corresponding other, construction technologies, established ones. This is actually the decisive point to the question.
They will overcome this problem and it will become cheaper, hopefully. Okay. Well beautifully. I was kind of alluding to earlier. I watched some YouTube videos, uh, with my children to prep for this. [00:26:30] So I had my nine year old son, seven year old daughter kind of watching, watching these items and my wife as well.
And we were just seeing this, massive robot, crane looking thing that was essentially spinning out, uh, like a toothpaste type substance, that, you know, you kind of alluded to earlier with that actually is now, but, it seemed much more national to them. Like I was wowed by it, but for them, they were just like, that's cool like that, but that is just the world that they live in now.
So I often wonder my next [00:27:00] question is, is, do you see a generationally different approach to having to quote unquote sell somebody like me or even an older generation on this concept of 3d printing or 3d construction versus a younger generation? That is just okay. Yeah. This is what we're used to seeing anyway.
Well maybe to some degree. Yes, but I think 3d printing is already in our minds. pretty, pretty much mainstream.
Right. , I think that, in a couple of years it will be perfectly normal for, pretty much a, [00:27:30] an increasing part of the population all over the world, that parts of our houses, homes and commercial buildings are constructed by robots. and, uh, a 3d printer part of these robotics solution.
I haven't why, because everything else has produced automated, the watches we wear the cars, we drive, everything is produced in an automated way. So actually construction is one of the last sectors, to have this development. and it is to watch us to watch a sector of this [00:28:00] planet, by the way.
and increasingly the demand will be skyrocketing because if we think I've just recently read a very, very interesting book, it's called fact fullness. , it's written by delight. Rosling
And he was a medical doctor and he also studied, statistics has done a wonderful job in actually presenting how the world really is,
, the point I wanted to make is to falling and he introduced, also an interesting [00:28:30] scheme saying like the T divided all the people in four levels.
So level one is very poor people. Level two is poor, but very poor, uh, level three is medium income group at level four is pretty much us, right? So the highest, living standard and not too surprisingly, 70% of all manmade CO2 emissions, all the come from the level four guys, because just the way of life we leave.
And [00:29:00] interestingly, and this is also positive. there is a large group of middle income people, which currently is about 3 billion people on their way from level three to level four. So guess what will happen once they have reached level four, because the effect is globally the same, everybody who reaches level four wants to lead the typical level for life.
And this underlines what I've said earlier, that we really need [00:29:30] technological solutions in order to sequester and reduce you to, because increasingly more and more and more people reach level four. By the end of this century, I think we will practically hardly have anybody level one, which is extreme, policy, uh, which is good.
Also life expectancy is increasing. So this just underlines that we need technology and science to assist us in order to. get this climate change and CO2, initial things out of control, but [00:30:00] I'm fully convinced that the solution lies in technologies in new technologies and inside scientific advancements.
That's interesting. Is it, so when you moved from level three to level four, I imagine most people have a more extravagant lifestyle. They probably have less time, so they just kind of throw money at whatever it is they want to do instead of devoting time to something that might be much more sustainable.
Is it just kind of a different mindset shift, [00:30:30] all almost circumvented around time? Is that what the book? Yeah, I guess so. I guess so. Yes, but, you know, , everybody wants to be mobile, right?
, also the CO2 emissions will dramatically increase, not decrease. personal individual mobility will certainly not go away. It will increase because all those people from level two will move to level three from three to four and so on.
So the demand will increase , So we need scientific and technological advances and the implementation of those in order [00:31:00] to get, uh, all our problems on the control, because the changing of habits, , the changing of habits is.
, if you know anything about change management, you can change a lot of things to change the mindsets. The habit of people is the most difficult task on a global scale. Forget it. So in my opinion, the key lies in technology and science. That was fascinating. We could, we could dive into [00:31:30] philosophy, much more.
, I want to get into the costs. So this was the biggest question that my wife and I even had when we were talking through this. But, um, if, if James Gray right now wanted to next month become a 3d house printing entrepreneur, what would that even look like? What are those things costs to produce this?
Is there a huge barrier to entry? Uh, I wouldn't say so necessarily. I mean, the biggest hurdle is the regulatory side, [00:32:00] which I mentioned, , the next step would of course, be to invest in the robot. They are different solutions available. You can order purchase solutions like that. Typically they are, an investment in terms of investment between 500 grades K and, , 800 K.
But of course you can write it off over many years. It's like a machine it's a robot, whatever, depending on the solution. and of course you need to be trained and certified as an operator in order to be in order to be [00:32:30] able to really run the machine or the printer in the correct way.
That's not a problem. , and here I have to elaborate a little bit more in Q2 crafting . First of all, this is , the company I'm most familiar with. and also, I think personally, of course I'm biased, but the products I think are really most advanced why because can to crafting, , and, actually in person, uh, professor Christian Navy has made it a very important point to have very light robots because [00:33:00] weight matters because you have to bear in mind.
If you print something, you have a lot of repeated movement because each and every layer is put on top of the, of the previous one. Right? , you have to go over, the floor plan many, many, many, many times, unless the building is fully erected. Uh, so that means you have a lot of accelerating and decelerating parts because it depends on your foreplay.
The more mass you moving, the more weight you [00:33:30] have, the more energy you need. , there are solutions that take two to three days in order to put everything in place in a sample it before you can even start, contour crafting was really focusing on, on, um, ready, uh, more or less ready to use products, right?
So if you have, this product, which we called craft twins, which was delivered to the army Corps of engineers in December, uh, which is, uh, a fixed , to a, , what is it flat flatbed? [00:34:00] So it's, uh, you can pick it up with a PLS easily within a minute or so. You can also deploy it easily in a minute.
And to print as dairy. It unfolds in the same by automatic medic way. And between 15 to 30 minutes, once it has been put on the floor, you can start print. So that's, that's pretty fast, It's uh, I have no knowledge of any other product that is faster than that. And then of course it depends on what is your printing and envelope of this machine.
And of course there are [00:34:30] different versions of such machines available and also how many floors you can print. But if Loris, um, here's something I want to point out, nobody can print floors, right? So what typically is is done is once you have finished the first to ground floor, you put onto the standard, , precast slabs on top of it, that then you pour you to print on top of it, or you pour concrete on it, when you need to harden it, and then you can print [00:35:00] your walls on off the second floor.
This is the process as it is right now. Of course that will also undergo some sophistication and advancement beyond any doubt, but it will take one, two or three years.
You speak my language. Now it's talking about the Corps of engineers. I, um, I also quote, uh, it's, uh, uh, Marine Corps, general, general Mauro, but he, he said something to the tune. I'll paraphrase it that, amateurs talk, you know, tactics and strategy, but, but experts, they speak or just sticks. And so [00:35:30] a lot of, even when you look at military history, it's here, it wasn't necessarily a tactical problem that they're trying to solve.
It was a logistical problem and moving, people and equipment, the mass and you talked about was that was the energy that was, needed to, to alter outcomes of, of war in this case. And so. it also applies to the helicopter, right? So I, uh, the amount of, a lot of power I have available to do anything on any given day is, pretty sad just based on some atmosphere, uh, elements, but, [00:36:00] but what it takes to actually get the helicopter off the ground is based on its weight.
So essentially every time I pick the helicopter up, uh, I'm weighing it and how heavy it is will determine how much power I need to take the helicopter anywhere. And so it's very present in all, all of what we do. this logistical struggle with maths. so my next question is , 500,800,000 to, to get a machine like this, maybe some certifications on how to use it, but, , what is [00:36:30] it typically then for the, um, the actual construction components.
So the actual material then is, is this something to where most of your costs when you're printing a home, if somebody said, Hey, a home is however many, $250,000, is it mainly just a fraction of a piece of the machine that you built or is the concrete structure and the mix that expensive as well to produce the walls?
I mean, [00:37:00] it's very difficult to answer this question generally, right? Because there are so many different countries, there are so many different, late, typical layouts they're so, so different, typical, uh, finishing philosophies, right? Because all the elements you bring in into the house and at the end of the day, how the house looks of course is a matter of cost at the end of the day.
So typically the costs, when you're printing, we all just talk about the shell. We do love, talk about a ready to move in the house, right. [00:37:30] And the cost of a, of a shell of a house. Typically, I think he'd range between, 15, 20% up to 50% of the overall cost,
So it's, it's a question like a lawyer. It depends. , however, what I can say is that construction is a high volume business. So, , having this in mind, a material you use for printing is not irrelevant, right?
what I have heard , some really [00:38:00] direct sources on that. Is, if we say that, , the cost of poured concrete and this all, this is the restaurant's point, because if you print with concrete or claim to print with concrete, uh, your, reference is the cost of poured concrete, because this is well known.
It's globally liberal. It's pretty inexpensive. Right. Um, so what I've heard, meanwhile, is that the average of the cost of these special mortars that are used in printing, [00:38:30] so-called concrete, uh, homes. I think the minimum is three times the price of poured concrete. And in one case I've heard if that is true, it's even up to about close to 10 times.
So then you can stop your math immediately, because this has not never, ever gonna pay. So, but I just wanted to make, you're aware that this is the topic of potential topic. Uh, and that's the reason why I continue crafting was really spending a lot of, [00:39:00] time , and, technical, , studies.
and, and in order to, to come to a resolve, how is it possible to be able to print with concrete, because it's the most trusted and reliable product we have in this sector, authorities knowledge, uh, and also the prices is low, In comparison to other, , especial borders. So this is something we need to bear in mind, but of course, at the end of the day, it's just the bottom line.
You draw the final line and then you can say [00:39:30] whether it is what was interesting or not, but there are so many, many aspects. Uh, if we talk about, as I mentioned, that we would talk about 3d construction printing. Ricardo's late, mainly talk about 3d , printed walls. So if you print volumes, you can do it in many ways.
I've seen solutions where they actually only print components like a precaster, . They, some of them even do it offsite, so to do it and to transport it to the job site and they put it together, assemble it, and then it has a lot of [00:40:00] finishing. You have to fill the gaps, and so on. You have to, to open it in order to bring in, uh, electrical.
Uh, installations and swap. and the next, the next thing is, uh, of course the best way to print is to print the whole structure directly at the Trump site in one shot. This is of course, for obvious reasons, uh, the most economic, also technically best way. Okay. But even if you're able to do this, then other questions arise, like, what is [00:40:30] your layer size, because the more narrow your, your, your layer is the more often you have to repeat the process, right? So you may be very fast when you put down this little layer, but you have to repeat it's, , maybe three or four times more often than somebody else who has a half up to speed, for instance. Right. So many, many different aspects.
Also, what does the speed, the surface of the wall look like? Is it smooth or just local, like, like, like this, where you really have to [00:41:00] do a lot of, uh, finishing efforts. Which again means a lot of extra cost though. So it really depends on the level of technological proneness of this, of the solution offering in order to determine, does this make sense?
. Okay. Yeah, that was good. Thank you. , did the accountant came on and I was like, okay, so we have this big six cost to start it off, but then my labor demand, which is normally your, your second highest cost of salaries, we will [00:41:30] know if those are, are pretty much eliminated.
Then you're just, you're kind of almost talking raw materials. And so you've simplified even a business model with, with technology too, from a bookkeeping standpoint. , that's a good point, actually. You know why? Because, um, Sometimes you even see them, the videos on other videos, you don't see it, but that's deliberate of course, and what I call human assisted automation.
So you see a robot and then you see three or four people [00:42:00] standing around, you know, just watching it patrolling and, uh, helping the robot, doing stuff. This is not automation. Right? It's human assisted automation.
The next thing I had touched on volume and, uh, Morgan, I don't, I don't mean to keep poking that burner if we have to move on, but the volume, so, , construction's a high volume business. And my next question was all about time. , JFC four was a, a British, , officer in world war one and he was obsessed with the tank and he would make very catty comments because back then the Calvary [00:42:30] officers were the cream of the crop, , the British, um, and one-on-one, and they would poke fun at him and say, you know, when you see these tanks, you know, how long can one of these run and he would, he would always reply, , with, you know, up to this point, sir, we haven't been able to exceed 24 hours in one day.
so th the whole like volume in this automation and what they can actually produce now, I would see reports that this home was printed in 15 days or less. But in actuality, how long was something like that [00:43:00] takes? Uh, cause it's not just running at 24 hours a day, every day, two comments to that from my side.
Uh, number one, you have to be careful if you are given times like, it took 120 hours to print this. Just to give an example, right? This means not 120 hours we start with now. And 120 hours later, the system, it means this is the total accumulated time to print that wasn't operation, [00:43:30] not counting interruptions.
This is one, one explanation in many, in many cases I have looked into it. , I would say that, , coming back to contu crafting corporation, we have a couple of different models. and, , one of those. So if we, if we think about a 200 square meter, uh, a floor plan, . , , , and uh, typically to come to crafters are gantry crafters, right?
So you have, uh, the tool rails, uh, and the gantry in between and [00:44:00] whatever is between the rails is basically your printing envelope. I would estimate that, if you have such a printer, a floor plan for one, one story, right. Uh, should take to print it, of course, depending on the floor plan, because if you have a lot of tiny rooms, , it takes you longer than you have to have a large, if you larger rooms, of course, that means less material to you need to print, So the distribution overdose 200 square meters, but, um, January I would expect it should be [00:44:30] between, uh, 24 to 48 hours to, to print that. However you need to, uh, spend some time to let it cure in order to sort of structure can support the next floor. . This is something we also have to bear in mind.
I only have one other question Somebody was interested in wanting to invest and there's 3d technology, 3d printing technology. Do you have any good resources or even educational pieces that you would, shoot my way [00:45:00] or any of the listeners were you mean you want to invest in equipment in order to use it for construction or invest in a company that develops and produces such a printer?
Yeah, I think it would be more into, from a company standpoint. So is there a way to get involved in this 3d printing technology from a more of a passive standpoint? or is it mostly privately held companies that you've seen? , it's private [00:45:30] companies. I think exclusively, I would not be aware of a single one.
Well, maybe a part, maybe the one in China, but I'm not clear about their ownership structure me well, but, uh, But, January, I would say it's old private enterprises privately owned businesses. So the best thing I can do is just lobby for deregulation so that I can see this every week. Yeah. But actually that's on the way already.
It's just have to be a little bit more, patient, I guess. [00:46:00] Uh, but actually mean, you know, I mean the technology is ready to be used. That's not the problem. The point is if you accept, , the hassle of seam case permits, uh, you can do it, but of course, again, I would say that in, in this sector, there are currently maybe four to five players, which I regard as, , interesting potentially where the racists open in my opinion, , whether just will prove to be economically viable or not. [00:46:30]
. But actually, frankly, personally, I hope it will. Because the more competition there is the battery you can compare.
And then, Oh, okay. Now you have a comparison, right? The comparative advantage is absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Vendor. I had a question for you. , it sounds like right now the technology is there. As far as the printer goes and with contour crafting, you have a actual concrete mixture versus just a mortar. I mean, both is [00:47:00] both is possible.
Right. And is it easy to find, or if someone did invest in this to basically build walls for houses, would, would they be having to buy a proprietary. Concrete mixture from contour crafting, or could they just get it anywhere? We have a mixture we, which is recommended, which is close to, as close as possible to twist the standard mixture.
, but the idea of course, is that it is, should be globally [00:47:30] available because if that is not the case, you know, we have without a problem because that's, uh, that is exactly what we, the situation we have, uh, with concrete, you can get internationally standardized, uh, cement sorts, wherever you are in discredit.
Right? So, and also the printers will go, you know, if, we sell a printer to a person or a company, uh, we do not control where he takes it. so it should be, it is an interesting and important [00:48:00] component to have this material available in the given market. And the material that's needed for the contour crafting machine.
Is it similar price as regular the mixture? Is it the same price as poured concrete? Well, the target is to have the prices on par as far as I'm informed. We are not fully yet there. I think the difference, currently is about 25%, more if I'm [00:48:30] not mistaken, but it's around this, , , deviation.
So to say, but it's certainly not three times more, five times more or, or even more, right? Yeah. I think especially with what has happened to the price of lumber over the last year, a lot more people are looking towards concrete, , There's also problems with labor. So, right. I mean, this is, I think this is problem for the us, uh, because in the U S there is so much stick-built right.
Uh, in Europe, in Europe, we hardly do [00:49:00] stick-built . Because as you have mentioned in Europe, if we buy a house or build a house with thinking generations, right, right. And therefore you built differently what I have heard, but I also understand that this discussion has been on for many years already is, the problem with stick-built, uh, apart from the lumber prices, by the way, , because also due to certain climate changes, , I've heard that, , the, the level or [00:49:30] of poison you need to put into destruction, order to prevent insects, , , to eat up your house is, has reached a level.
We're where there is obviously discussion to say, who can we really, allow people living in this house anymore? , and number two, uh, speaking about sustainability, of course, I think, I mean, of course I'm as a European I'm bias, but I think it's much smarter to construct [00:50:00] houses and homes that lasts decades, if not centuries, and not build something that is where it is generally accepted that somewhere between 30 up to 17 years, it's gone getting you to tear it down.
Anyway, it repeat, repeat everything, right? This is, uh, I think the opposite of sustainability. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, as this is a show for outdoor lovers Virta can you share what the outdoors meant to you as a kid growing up? Yes. Well, actually very much, uh, because, uh, as I [00:50:30] mentioned, I was growing up in a Vietnamese forest.
So I spent, , practically all of my free time into woods together with my dogs. , and also my grandparents. , they have, my, my grandfather had a lodge, a forest in Steria, which is , , a state in the South of Austria. , so I was spending a lot of time outdoors, , on mountains climbing and, , strolling through the woods with my dogs.
So, so nature, uh, I always had to personally, , a very strong affection for nature. [00:51:00] Sounds like a paradise going through Austria with your dogs in the forest. Yeah, it really is. I can recommend it.
. And James, how about you? What role did that outdoors play for you as a kid growing up? Yeah, , I was always outside.
Um, maybe we didn't have quite as many distractions to keep us inside and that was a plus, but, uh, I've got pretty fun memories of, , building a tree house on land. That was definitely not mine nor was I [00:51:30] supposed to be there. But having that sense of adventure, finding the creeks nearby. Um, you know, taking nails from, uh, friend's dad's woodsheds so that we can construct something to, to play out there was, was this great, , wearing my mother's old uniforms and going out there and just, I've got so many fond memories of the connectedness of being outside and the creativity that it, builds.
And even to this day, there's this calmness, [00:52:00] when I can just be outside in the woods, when I'm climbing a mountain or hiking, the higher I'd go, I can actually feel stress. Just kind of leave. And I don't know if it's just the thinning oxygen, but, um, it's very real. And so there's a good connectedness to it and there's something there's, there's something to it.
A lot of people just walk, you know, bill Gates walks a lot. , and being in the woods just, or being in nature in itself, I think, um, gets a certain triggers, certain items into your mind to, to just think quite differently. [00:52:30] , my last like really fun memory, , is I had to be home by the time the street lights came on.
That was my curfew. And, uh, I CA I would be racing on my bike from streetlamp to strength amp, just hoping that it did not come on. Cause I would be in trouble if those lamps are on and then I was coming home. So that, that was, that was it. That I was racing electricity as a young, so yeah, that's just, those are the, those are those good memories of fond memories that I just, I [00:53:00] need my, I need it.
It's good. Yeah, I think that connection to the outdoors and nature, there's a tangible, structural change in your brain. You know, the flow of neuro-transmitters changes just by being out in the woods and it's such an easy and simple solution. And that's why I think it's important that investors think about sustainability so that our kids and grandkids can have those same experiences.
If we had to live in an apartment in a [00:53:30] city or an entire life, I don't, I don't know it would be tough, but if people wanted to learn more about contour crafting or the work that you're doing, where should they go? Well, they could contact me for instance. Um, my email is pretty easy. It's my initials. W H B or w H B all small letters, at come to crafting.com.
Pretty easy. And James, if people wanted to learn more about your real estate business or other ventures you have [00:54:00] going, where should they contact you? , I'm probably most active on LinkedIn. , so if you can find me one of many James Gray's on LinkedIn, , I've got a beautiful backdrop of the Dolomites, so I can find the Italian Dolomites, James Gray.
That's the one. There are also links to, uh, fly-by properties, LLC, which is my company, uh, based in the States. . Fantastic. Well, Verna and James, thank you so much for joining and sharing all this incredible knowledge.
It's [00:54:30] right there at that tipping point. And if those laws change and this becomes, the future of sustainable building, I can't wait. Well, thank you very much for having me. I enjoyed it. Yeah. All right. Until next time, climb your mountains. Thank you. Thank you. Goodbye. Bye.