In-depth details of the first 3D printed apartment building in Europe, design houses, and the affordable housing potential of 3D printed construction in the US and Europe.
Fabian Meyer-Brötz and Joseph Druther unpack the nitty gritty details of the costs, planning, and benefits of investing in 3D printed homes.
They also workshop how a small business can incorporate this disruptive technology into their business.
Our accomplices on this journey include Fabian Meyer-Brötz--the head of 3D printing for Peri - a family owned global leading company in construction scaffolding and Joseph Druther - an American small business contractor and investor uninspired by the dogma and lack of vision in the construction industry looking for a better way.
Can this, will this -- change the world???
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Thanks again to Fabian and Joseph to help us unpack this on our Summit Roundtable.
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[00:00:00] Track 3: So we call it a disruptive technology. It changes everything from planning, considering new designs, integration of trades directly into the building process. With three construction printing, we basically bring a very big machine on a construction site where we then stack layer upon layer of concrete, tiny layers, maybe about an inch tall.
Um, and that way the walls go up from the bottom all the way to the ceiling. Step-by-step until a whole house is print. The beauty of it is we can have cameras on our print ads. [00:00:30] And if the building inspector wants to, he can, he can watch the whole print process from start to finish, and then he can be right there where it happens.
It can also just watch a time lapse if he wants to. Definitely you can definitely live stream it anywhere in the world. I mean, you can also operate a printer from your smartphone if you want to. So we got it through the German building codes, which are arguably. The toughest in the world may be second to Japan, but it's, it's very difficult and the Germans are rather famous for our bureaucracy.
And if we got it [00:01:00] done here, we are very confident we can get it done across. I can tell you that everybody else around me is there. They're too busy. Riding the bike with the flat tire to stop and change the wheels. Right. They don't have the time or the money. They don't have R and D departments. We're just kind of like small town people.
This is like, this is flipping everything that at least in the United States way of building on its head. So trying to convince somebody that, you know, not, not like, oh, this is a better nail gun. It's this is a totally different way of doing things. People are just going to [00:01:30] be completely clueless. Like what's the first step Ms.
Morgan fielder. And you're listening to my podcast, the art of sustainable investing, a celebration of the outdoor experience and exploration of how to invest to make money and make a difference. In this episode, I ask how 3d printed homes will change the world. How does it work? What's the cost. And what sustainability benefits does a giant robot [00:02:00] spewing out layer upon layer of concrete offer.
And more importantly, how can small businesses incorporate this disruptive technology into their business? We're going to explore the first 3d printed apartment building in Europe design houses and the affordable housing potential. Our accomplices on this journey include Fabi on Meyer Brits, the head of 3d printing for Perry, a family owned global leading [00:02:30] company and construction scaffolding, and Joseph drew.
They're an American small business contractor and an investor uninspired by the dogma and lack of vision in the construction industry. And he's looking for a better way. Can this, will this. Change the world more after this.
[00:03:00] So why is this important beyond the obvious skyrocketing lumber prices, supply chain problems and labor shortages, and houses that blow away with the wind, or you can poke a screwdriver through what is sustainability. Is this a word used to sell you more stuff? And does it mean the same thing? The same material, the same processes in different parts of the world.
I live in gorgeous Western Germany, and you can't throw a stone in any village here [00:03:30] without hitting a living green roof, but should we be building a so-called green roof in Colorado or normal roofs in general that are planned to be replaced in 15 to 25. Down in gorgeous Southern Pines, North Carolina, Joseph has been involved in some way or fashion with construction since he was 14.
He's a family man, a thriving, small businessman, and an expert at reframing pain from a hike without the proper equipment here he [00:04:00] is talking about the Appalachian trail without a good sleeping. Was hiking the AC not all the way through, but you know, spending, I think we spent like four or five day hike with me and a buddy of mine before I got married.
Um, that was a blast. I still get cold feet to this day because of the nerve damage. Anytime it gets a little bit cold, my, my toes go a little bit numb and it's just, it's just a reminder of, of the fun that we have. My father was a carpenter. We were always working on the houses that we were living in and, you know, we'd sell them and move on and buy another one that we needed to fix up.
And my first [00:04:30] job was as a. You know, working for my brother, you know, my future brother-in-law at the time doing plumbing. And then, uh, did that for a few years. And then I moved over to the electrical, uh, trades did that for a few years, uh, wound up working eventually getting up to like a nuclear power plant, working as an electrician up there, we do syndications on large apartment complexes.
We've got Airbnbs, we've got short term rentals or regular long-term rentals, single family, small multi-family. Um, and I would say now kind of our. Bread and [00:05:00] butter is more towards new construction, but he like many others is becoming frustrated by the current trends in home building in America. He's noticed the persistent dogma and an industry stuck in its way.
What we do is we put out a good quality product. I don't like putting out garbage. And so we're not, we've never been able to compete with like production home builders, because we've never been able to do things cheap enough to compete with them because I'm not willing to cut those corners cause prices are going up.
[00:05:30] Right. So we've been doing it. The only way to build it cheaper is by putting less. The stuff in it. I mean, that's just make things thinner, you know, put less of them in. And so you wind up getting houses without sheathing and just like metal straps for, you know, shearwalls and just building something, you could poke a screwdriver through and get it, you know, from the outside and get into the kitchen and kind of thing.
And, and that just, that's just doesn't. Yeah. I've always hated that. And over the years it's been getting harder and harder to. Labor has been getting more expensive to build because of [00:06:00] labor. And now we've got, you know, all these material shortages and got all these different things. It's always trying to figure out, okay, how do we, how do we reduce the amount of labor that goes into a house?
How do we cut out some of the waste and materials? Have you ever met people who are a bridge, not radical in any way, but open and curious. I think I saw a statistic. There's something like 800,000, uh, construction companies in the United States. And the average size of the construction company is [00:06:30] between like eight and nine people.
So that, that is my company, right? I am that company. I think we've got like 10 people, 11 people. We are like exactly average. And I think as far as size and that kind of things goes, but I can tell you that everybody else around me is there. They're too busy, you know, riding the bike with a flat tire to stop and change the wheels.
Right. They don't have the time or the money. They don't have R and D departments. We're just kind of like small town people had had been seeing 3d construction. For a couple of years [00:07:00] now, but it wasn't until they actually sold the first house, you know, it was kind of one of those things in the back burner, it kind of was aware of it somewhere.
Light bulb. This is going to change the game because I can't find enough people to do the work there's way too much, too many houses that need to get built and not enough people to do it. Um, Lumber's way too expensive. Can we just step outside of the box enough to say. This is an entirely different way of doing things with two people instead of 30.
[00:07:30] And it's only gonna take you two weeks instead of six to get to this point. And so that's what kinda got us down this rabbit hole. And now we're, you know, kind of full fledged into figuring out who we're going to be buying a printer from and who we're gonna be working with and, and really shaping that up to be our, the future of our business.
Automated construction holds enormous potential. But where to start. How about what? The head of 3d construction printing for the global family company, Perry who worked on the very first [00:08:00] European multifamily 3d printed apartment building tenants were welcomed last week. Meet Fabio. Perry Verde, the largest former Oregon scaffolding supplier across the globe.
And as such, we're still at 100% family owned business. And as you said, things we've been doing the same things for probably centuries and construction productivity. Hasn't really increased in the last couple of decades. And we, as a family owned business, we, we tend to have a kind of a long-term view on things.
[00:08:30] And if a technology comes around like 3d printing, it might disrupt our own business. Um, to put it in very plain and simple terms. If somebody is going to destroy our businesses better be ourselves. And with that mindset, we've been active in the realm of 3d construction printing for quite a couple of years.
Now, back in the day of you've decided to put our money with a cobalt in Denmark, a construction printing startup there, who we've been jointly bringing this technology to the markets and to our clients. [00:09:00] And where is Kerry located with the 3d projects in particular? So our headquarter is in the Southern parts of Germany.
Um, so we have a local team obviously here in regard to 3d printing, but we also have a local team located in Houston, Texas that is solely dedicated to 3d printing. Oh, okay. You guys, this would be like the VP of Exxon promoting solar panels in the mid 1980s. This technology makes it [00:09:30] so that scale isn't needed very much.
This is truly an example of abundant thinking. Instead of trying to grab more of the pie, they are trying to expand the entire pie. I want to learn more about this kind of executive. Who is Fabiana and how did he grow up? Oh, I love it. I love traveling. Uh, if I've been at will still allowed, I do really love the Andes in Southern [00:10:00] America in particular, Peru going up there 5,400 meters or whatever, 15,000 feet they're there.
Like nobody there and you were very close to the stars. Well, I grew up with a single mom and an older, um, I've been a fed, a very, very happy childhood. Um, still a very close relationship to my mom and then my sister. So we've, we've always had, we've always loved cooking and eating. Um, actually my sister and I love cooking more than my mom, uh, which is probably the reason that [00:10:30] we are still even today doing the cooking.
And my mother is doing then the eating and being the guest at the dinner. Oh, that's great for your mother. That's awesome. So, can you share what some of your earliest memories about sustainability are? Um, well, I'm a physicist by profession, um, and grew up in a rather small town here in the Southern parts of Germany.
So I mean, being surrounded by basically agriculture, um, has just definitely, and also being a lot [00:11:00] in the outdoors has definitely shaped my youth then. Yeah. Doing my study during my studies, I've been going into the bigger cities and been traveling more and more, but I still felt that, you know, whenever I got back home, basically wherever nature is important and very, very, I have all this nature around me.
It became more and more clear that this is something that I cherish and I want to make sure that I can also have this and then pass it on to tomorrow.
[00:11:30] I first heard the word sustainable and concrete in the same sentence. I scratched my head. Cement is a problem, but having traveled the middle east Europe, Asia, and north America, it's apparent that concrete is necessary. And so startups around the world are trying to green up the parts of concrete that aren't so earth friendly, like co-board, and it's no waste 3d, concrete printing and carbon cure with its use of recycled CO2 [00:12:00] embedded directly into the building materials.
And there are many, many more examples. So while not exactly the carbon footprint of a straw bale house, these approaches are working toward a better future at scale. And they're realistic about the fact that we need housing for 4 billion, more people that are expected to inhabit the earth by 2100, according to the United nations, we tackle sustainability is on various levels for 3d construction printing.
And I'll try to tackle those briefly [00:12:30] one by one. So one is definitely the material site as such, so concrete. Concrete, there is various forms of concrete and there is various, let's say Cementers materials that we can print with and yeah, as we go through rather norm novel, so permitting processes and new construction processes, we are not limited by existing categorizations of concrete.
We can use completely new concrete materials that have a way lower CO2. Print and what we were used to, [00:13:00] that's definitely one option. And obviously we've also printed with materials that are without any cement, they're still called cement just because they behave the same, but there is not any seminar at the seminars.
Um, as, as you might know, the, basically the, the CO2 carrier in the concrete that's that's one level is basically simply the material front. The next level is of course that we. Can create clever shapes, um, with conventional 3d printing, as you tend to say, it's complexity for [00:13:30] free. Um, and there's a very basic math example.
If you take a 2000 square foot rectangle and you turn that into a 2000 square foot circle, so the same square footage, but your circumference is reduced by almost. Um, and so you might not want to do circular houses. If you want to hang a couple of pictures on the wall, we get that, but a couple of curves here and there really helped to reduce the material needed.
Um, and secondly, there's always the question. Well, why do we build walls that are all the same? [00:14:00] Um, from a structural standpoint, nature would do that from a structural standpoint. It doesn't make any sense. So with 3d printing, we can really place a material very needed. Um, you call that the so-called topology optimization.
So to optimize the structure of structural proteins. So that's the second level that we, we tackled sustainability wire and material savings. And lastly, it's definitely also about resilient and long-lasting buildings. Concrete is, does mold doesn't burn. It [00:14:30] tends to be hurricane proof. If we create very long lasting resilient buildings and considering the overall life cycle cost of a building is also contributing to the sustainability of the technology.
But over here, it's, it's normal to build. Generations to come and to pass it down. And so we really do enjoy that, but of course, it's also again about making it safe for the inhabitants. If it doesn't burn out mold or get doesn't blow and get blown away. I mean, that's a part of [00:15:00] sustainability that every now and then maybe gets overlooked.
But from my point of view, the social aspect is definitely at least as important that everything that's also in the building is also protected. Be it photos for, from your families that are not. Did you can also pass on for generations and generations and they're protected in the building as well. So what is the bottom line and how does it work on a practical level?
Let's listen in to this summit round table between Joseph and Fabienne. A lot of this industry here in the United States, at least we're [00:15:30] very much stuck in our ways we've been doing the same thing for a very, very long time. This is such a huge, I feel like it's such a huge potential. I guess my thought is how does, how does, how do you wind up convincing.
Your average construction company, how do you convince them that this is what they need to be looking at or else, you know, we're, we're going to closing ourselves into a box here. If we don't, if we don't do something and we don't change, right? Like how, how does that, how does that process start? Um, still to [00:16:00] put it very plain and pragmatic, I think in construction across the globe, people tend to change once the pain is big enough and not before that.
And you've seen. Actually also in the last 10 years that the pain points have been increasing and increasing, and now it's increased even more resource scarcity, labor shortage. I mean, nothing of that is new in any, any way or form, but it has now gotten to a new high, um, and the pain is just so big for a lot of these, [00:16:30] these companies and suppliers and everyone involved that the need for change is.
Clear, and it will, from my point of view, we'll, we'll, we will see also new entrance, um, into the market from people who have not been active in the construction sphere at all. And now see the potential with this technology and then help move it along. It will need innovative thinking, people that believe in this technology.
Um, and let's see, okay, I want to take it up. I see the potential and I'll take it there. [00:17:00] Um, some people will look for. They will only adopted the technology. Once everything is proven various times over at that point in time, it will most likely be too late for a lot of them. If everything's proven, then somebody else has already answered all these questions.
Somebody else has already done it. Um, and these people who have then already done it, they will be far ahead of the competition. And now the question is simply where do people want to want to stand? Um, on the other end, You know, we [00:17:30] have to also still be realistic. It's not going to be the case that 3d printing is going to have a 20% market share in three years.
Right? It's this is not the digital world. It's still the physical world. All we are talking digital technology, but it's still the physical world. So the timeframe it will take for 3d printing to gain a significant market share. It will still take a little longer. But as we all know a construction industry, probably the largest industry in the world, even a small market share is worth billions.
Um, so [00:18:00] that's still very, very interesting for investors to get into to this. Um, because it, you know, even a small market share will do the trick. Yeah. How long do you think it will be? It actually is a more adopted mainstream. Do you have any ideas at Perry? I mean, I know you guys are a big company, probably got lots of people figuring this kind of thing out.
You know, we, we are, we are a big company and as such, we are also almost forced to do planning of course, but with such technology it's really difficult. So I, yeah. Your guess [00:18:30] is as good as mine. Um, in all honesty, uh, we've seen an almost exponential growth, uh, cobalt has been selling what, four times as many printers this year, as last year.
So, um, it's this exponential growth is, is tremendous. Um, so great success on all fronts there. Um, and if it will continue like that and we're, or we are very sure it will. Um, then it's gonna be maybe again, faster than we would have thought. Still definitely years. Yeah. Not decades [00:19:00] but years. Right. So I guess, you know, as far as, uh, for me, because I'm an investor, right.
I'm an investor first, then I'm a general contractor or builder second. Right. So we do all kinds of syndications and all, all kinds of different things. And a lot of times when I'm talking with people, it's just, it's bottom line. I mean, people want to invest in the future and that that's fun and exciting, but at the end of the day, there's gotta be, you know, dollars in dollars out.
Like it's gotta make sense. I know that it's still very new technology. You [00:19:30] know, there's a lot of misinformation around the $4,000 house I, you know, or the $10,000 house or this or that. And I see that these news articles and I'm thinking my kitchen cabinets just cost me eight. So I don't, I don't know what I can say, that's it.
And that's not even installed. Right. So like, I don't have no idea what they're talking about when they say these kinds of things. Um, so, you know, obviously that's not realistic. Do you, um, you know, with you, you guys are kind of, uh, pretty well out in front as [00:20:00] far as building actual houses, actual apartment complexes, and you've actually done these kinds of things.
Um, do you have, uh, any, any costs analysis to figure out? Okay. Right now it's costing us about X for this house versus a traditional method of construction. Sure we've taken a very close look at costs, um, for, for the projects we did. So, I mean, we did the first 3d printed building in Germany, which is a two-story single-family home.
We did the first, um, [00:20:30] uh, multi-family apartment units here in Europe, which is a three story five apartment house. Um, we also recently did a project in, in temporary Arizona with habitat for humanity, which is a single family home there. Um, uh, so obviously. You can't really compare costs from, from Europe to the U S it doesn't make any sense that building method is completely different.
Um, sort of prevalent the conventional, I mean, you all have to have a bottom line that you're comparing it to. Um, so the first buildings now we did in Germany, [00:21:00] Very, roughly speaking, 20, 25% more expensive, um, which is from our point of view, a tremendous success, um, because these, these numbers, so a little bit more expensive on the first or second try and we have lots of things that we can do better in the future.
Um, that's just amazing. Um, I still feel that. Yeah, dollars in dollars out. I get it, but we will be, we tend to create value with this technology that is potentially [00:21:30] overlooked the con the complete sustainability aspect of it. Um, so how, how do you factor that into the calculation and again, the, the social aspect as well.
So if you create. A high-end or at least a good standard home, uh, which maybe has an individual design with, with 3d printing as is feasible. People who live in that home and, and feel that this is a great individual home, that they helped design. They [00:22:00] will take care of such a struggle. Um, this is, this is not, you know, it's not just a roof above your head.
It's not just a shelter. Um, but it's actually a habitat. It's a place that you call home. Um, and I think that these are things that are. Potentially overlooked, um, difficult to put that into dollar signs. Um, but I think from a, again, from an overall perspective, people tend to recognize this, that the sustainability aspect, people that want to buy the house, or when I rent a house, if it's not sustainable, they simply might not [00:22:30] rent it.
Um, and if it's a place that they call home, then it's also, um, more worth to them. So, uh, The potential is there for the technology to be come cheaper than conventional. Definitely. Um, we will, we will get there in the, not too far future, but even without this, there is so much, many things that create value apart from dollar.
Well, I think that, um, I think that you kind of hit it. There's a lot of other things that other than just dollars, right? [00:23:00] So for. When, when I think about, you know, what we like to build, we'd like to build good quality homes, even if it costs me the same amount of money. Like even if I couldn't get it done any cheaper, if I could do it for about the same price, but I could have, you know, Whatever, you know, 30 walls or 40 walls with, you know, the, my, my air tests, my blower door tests are just going to be phenomenal because it's a solid structure.
There's no thermal bridging. There's all of these other benefits. Um, as a builder that I see in [00:23:30] building a quality home that I I'm thinking, man, if I could, if I could get those kinds of qualities for even close to the same, same close to the same price, that that's just a no-brainer for me, because that's just what you know, that the product that I want.
But I think as far as like rentals my apartment buildings, that we have all these different things, you know, capital expenditures, maintenance, and repairs. Those are huge numbers on the bottom line for us. Like when we've got 10 to 20% of the income that coming in is going back [00:24:00] out to just maintenance and repairs and all the siding needs to get replaced in a certain amount of years and all of these different things.
And every time a tenant moves out, you're going to have the holes in the walls and all this stuff. And I'm thinking. If I could print a 3d concrete house and I know every time it rains, I'm not worried about, oh, I gotta get over there and fix that leak because it's rotting is slowly rotting out underneath that, uh, you know, underneath that Eve or underneath a window or whatever.
And I know that when the tenants move out, I might have to repaint, but I'm not there shouldn't be. I mean, there shouldn't be a hole in the wall if there's a hole in the wall because he took a jackhammer to it, you know, that kind of [00:24:30] thing like that, that is really appealing thinking this, this is a good quality product that is going to last me for a really long time.
You know, I think that could be really, really attractive to investors that might even be willing to pay more for a good quality asset. That's going to last them 50 years and be extremely low maintenance costs. You know, I think you've just described what a sustainable investment is, right? I mean, if you, you have, you have for a longer period of time.
So, um, that, that [00:25:00] definitely makes a lot of sense and I fully agree that that's what the technology comes down to, um, being resilient, um, and creating these, these high, or does this added value homes one additional point here again? And I think that's important to say, you know, we can add features with a 3d printer that make the home feel of, um, You know, I have a high-end product for the same price.
Be it a fancy shapes support structure for your kitchen countertop, be it a [00:25:30] walk-in shower that it has kind of a snake or a snail form or whatever you want to call it or a spiral. That's the word I was looking for, um, a spiral form. Um, or you could be like the architect of one of our projects. A lot of my quality, he decided, you know, 3d print the fireplace, um, which is a amazing design feature, um, which comes at basically no extra costs.
So you can. Potentially have the same amount of dollars, but if you walk into the [00:26:00] building, you're going to, you feel like you should have paid more for this. Um, and then the building is, I was around for a long period of time. So, so these things combined make it a little complex as of now with not hundreds of houses out there to do that.
Perfect return on investment calculation. That's for a young technology. That's the case. Um, I think the, let's say more of the soft facts speak for the technology, uh, as well, and they need to be. Yeah. So I [00:26:30] guess, uh, that kind of spurs another question about kind of thinking about how long it will take to build the actual house, right.
Or what parts of the process rather are going to be the most realistically replaced the soonest. The automation from something like this printer, and then what's that going to do to like schedules as well? Because that's another thing that I feel like has been kind of a misnomer as you here, you know, print it in 24 hours.
And we printed a house in 24 hours and well, it was spread out over three months or four months or something like that. So it's like, it's [00:27:00] not, it's not quite, you know, apples to apples. Right. So I know you, you, you said earlier, you. You print it, you're getting faster and faster. Can you touch on that? And maybe, you know, how w how quickly, how much faster than, than the way you're building it.
Now you foresee it to be once it's kind of really fully operating. Sure we play with our cards on the table and dead one. Um, we don't have anything to hide. Even if you take a little bit longer on the very first drive, we were still very proud of it. So when we did the first printed building in Germany to the ground floor, [00:27:30] took us 28 days to print with a ground floor area of roughly a thousand square foot.
Um, and that was obviously great. So 28 days, way too long. Um, we had quite some issues in material logistics on that, but then we moved to the second story and there, it took us only eight days, um, to print this. So, you know, we've improved tremendously in this very first project, just going from one floor to the next.
And then we, when we moved to the multi-family building, which is twice the square footage on ground [00:28:00] floor area, we actually got it done in seven days. So we. Square footage and stood, reduced the print time and we feel it's such a structure. Um, if we do it four or five times more, um, then Viva will be able to do that in just three days.
And that is all exterior walls, all interior walls. This is for example, you know, the walk-in shower. The fireplace, a support structure for your kitchen counter top. Um, this excludes, uh, includes all the, um, the, the carve-outs [00:28:30] basically for power outlets for plumbing, um, et cetera. So all of that is, is in there.
Um, and as we tend to print double walls, also the installation process. The multi-family building three stories, Pfizer, five apartments to put the installation that building took one day because we had hollow core walls. Um, so it really creates efficiency in the overall, um, construction process. And that's what makes it so bloody exciting.
Yeah. So you're thinking that once [00:29:00] you guys get this nailed down, like about 2000 square feet, You know, plus, or minus about 2000 square foot, you think you could print something like that in three days as interior walls, exterior walls, the whole kit and caboodle. I mean, that's so, and so just, just to, to really explain what that is, I mean, you might be able to frame 2000 square feet with a traditional framing in, in three days in 2000 square feet.
Right. You could, you could do that with a big enough crew, right? You don't then you've got to come [00:29:30] in and insulate. Then you've got to come in and sheet rock. Then you gotta put in your exterior cladding. Then you got to put in your, uh, you know, you gotta paint your car. There's, there's all of these other steps in the process with that, that are not included in that three days.
So at three days, you've basically done with sheet rock. You're done with your exterior cladding. You know, you're done with all of this stuff and installation. And, and you're ready and you're ready for, to start roughing in, which is a little weird, a little, you know, roughing in after the dry walls up. But, but, you know, basically that's, that's, [00:30:00] that's going to be incredible.
So I look at it for me as a builder thinking, okay, how many times can I cycle this? You know, if I can take my team of people and, and build 30 houses as opposed to 10 houses or 15 houses, if I can shorten that cycle, um, that's gonna be. You know, huge for us. Um, are you putting just quick, are you putting like, uh, like a spray foam insulation in those walls?
Are you guys doing like a, we have different kind of installation. We tend to like to go the sustainable route also in the, on the installation. So we [00:30:30] use, um, in our case it was kind of able Kennewick stone, um, that, that was used as, as a insulating material. Um, our friends at Colburn and Denmark used a cellulose paper material for installation.
You could use spray foam if you wanted to, but, um, basically you could, you can use all those various insulating materials, um, to also make the structure more sustainable on that end. Um, so, um, that's another upside of the technology. And again, we're probably just scratching the surface [00:31:00] today, right? I mean, what the numbers that, I've what I mentioned earlier to the topology optimization.
If we include that in our estimations of how fast we could be, as we reduce the amount of concrete that we print, it might even be faster than that. Right. And so it's, um, that, that potential is so tremendous that it's, um, that it just needs people to believe in it and to put their, their money into it.
And, um, then it's potentially almost like a self-fulfilling prophecy. Then, then [00:31:30] we will, we'll create a technology that can change the world. Yeah. Yeah. That's um, um, I'm excited about it. That's that, that, to me, it just tickles, it tickles the, uh, the, my heart. I dunno. I don't know how to describe it. It just makes me so excited about what, you know, what it could be for our business anyways, you know?
So have you had any, uh, I guess another, another thought is, um, the planning process, you know, this is a very [00:32:00] unconventional thing. Are you building your structures based on traditional, traditionally accepted methods? I think I saw in, in Germany, it looked like you had a, the one house was built with, uh, under masonry standards.
Um, and then it seemed like another one may have built under a traditional, like a pier and beam standards, uh, you know, kind of is. Is that, um, Just to help you get through the planning process. Is that a pretty difficult right now or so, so that, that permitting approach that [00:32:30] you've, you've taken, um, that is an, a very important point that you're touching upon that, uh, the, do we need reinforcement in the printed, concrete or not?
That is one of the core questions. Um, and you can include it if you into print there. The question really is not a technological one, but more of a cost one. Does it economically make sense? Um, but if you do. Single family houses, even smaller multi-family homes. Um, they don't necessarily need reinforcement.
They can be what's called compression only, depending [00:33:00] on a good structural concept. So we can also get rid of the reinforcement in essence. Um, and that was a core reason that we decided to go for a masonry, um, norm basically to align ourselves to that norm because we didn't need the reinforcement for that type, that the size of structure, it's not a Skyscanner.
We'll get there as well, the 3d printing, but not quite yet as well. So if you don't do a skyscraper, then you can get rid of the reinforcement. And hence, we decided to align ourselves with the masonry norms, um, for the permitting process. We at [00:33:30] least maybe now that's the, the careful German speaking here, but, uh, we, we liked.
Soil testing. Um, if we, you know, build a house and have people live in it, we are a hundred percent sure that everything's fine with the building. Um, so we did a lot of testing on compression, 10 style, freezing and thawing, et cetera, and not just, you know, small samples. That are maybe, um, a foot long and then two by two inches or something like that.
But we tested whole wall elements. So eight feet by [00:34:00] eight feet wall elements that we did three point bending tests on I'm getting a little technical here, but th this is, this is very dear to us and very important to us that we've done this thorough testing to be sure that the people who live in the building are safe and sound, um, with that does take a little bit of time.
Obviously it can be copy pasted from one project to the next, if we have to Ted to under testing, once you can always reuse it. Um, and we've seen that the permitting process is. Is new. Yes. Also for the permitting [00:34:30] offices and to city officials. Um, there is also some convincing that needs to be done, but again, it's kind of a one-time effort.
I mean, if you've got it through one second, time will be easier to thirdly, even easier. So this is it's, it is a hurdle, but from our point of view, it's definitely one, one can take. Um, so we, we got it through the German building codes, which are, um, arguably. The toughest in the world, maybe second to Japan.
Um, but it's, it's very difficult and the Germans are rather [00:35:00] famous for our bureaucracy. And if you got it done here, we are very confident we can get it done across the globe. Yeah. Um, um, I'm hopeful. So if they got it done. Yeah. I think they got it done in New York, too. I'm on long island of all places. So I think that, you know, between long island and Germany and that I think we'll be okay.
And I know we touched on it. A little bit earlier, you know, is it, is it possible for some of these small companies to kind of move in this direction and get involved? I mean, or is that something that [00:35:30] Perry is filling that need? Or, you know, how does that. So we, we try with various ways to help people get into the, uh, into the field of 3d printing.
I mean, of course the two printers are for sale. We've sold them across the globe. They, it's not a prototype, but by far not a prototype anymore. So whoever wants to have a full fledged industrial 3d printer can obviously buy it from us. Um, we offer all that. Courses towards the end of the year for people to just get [00:36:00] to know the technology for one or two days, right?
Nothing. They're not going to get the full set training in two days, but to get a feel for what it can do. And we do offer also offer or are planning to offer rentals for now. We only have one printer in the U S that we potentially can rent it out. And that is obviously, um, booked out. But that is something that we offer.
And in exceptional cases where there is a good price. With good people. We also do offer, um, to basically act as a subcontractor to, um, to provide this [00:36:30] technology, to, to other contractors, to help them get on board, to understand what the technology can do. Um, additionally, to this, we have a very, um, broad range of services.
So we support the training. Um, of course, uh, we support the planning process, the permitting process with the city officials with the material providers locally. So we really try to. People buy their hand and walk them through the whole process that said we also don't know everything. Of course. So we are very, um, [00:37:00] uh, we are also always dependent on people having their own great ideas of how to include this technology in their construction process and how it makes, uh, how it works locally.
So, um, we support this journey, but we don't know everything yet. Um, and that's, that's fair to people come in that want to make this.
Interesting. Very, very cool. So basically they would, you know, it's a company like you would kind of hold. Hold hold somebody's hand. I mean, if it, it seems like, it seems like it would still be a [00:37:30] really, uh, you know, maybe a really large investment for some of these smaller companies. Like, you know, I know for companies like mine, I work with investors, we build spec.
We do, we deal with investors all the time. We've, you've got a lot of access to different funding sources, but a lot of these construction companies are just. You know, they're saving up to buy an excavator, like small pieces of equipment is a big deal to them, right? It's not now we're talking, you know, three quarters of a million dollars for maybe a printer.
Plus you've got to hire somebody, you know, they don't know a lot of these contractors can't even get their email [00:38:00] straight, let alone, like how in the world are they going to figure out how to run a slicing software or whatever, you know? So now they're talking about new people that we've got to bring on the team and all that, that kind of, uh, that kind of stuff.
It seems like. Um, it can be a really complicated process, but I don't want to argue that point. It can be a complicated process and you do need a little bit of money. I, I agree with that. Uh, I mean, if it would be easy, somebody else would have already done it a thousand times over, but it's definitely feasible, right?
I mean, if you have something. [00:38:30] Can change the world and it's easy that doesn't really go together very well, but it's feasible. It can be done if you're motivated and you want to get it done, then, then you're, you're there to help. But in the United States, at least affordable housing is such a huge, huge issue.
We just don't, we just don't have enough of it. So there's a statistic that 50% of the buyers pay 50% of the people that would be interested in purchasing a house. [00:39:00] Are limited at $249,000. So basically $250,000 and below is what they're able to buy. And that's 50% of the people looking to purchase a house.
And the average house in the United States right now is like over $400,000. So we're just not even close. There's so many houses that need to be built, you know, This technology is, it seems like, at least for the foreseeable future is going to really only help the middle to [00:39:30] upper middle, middle to upper-class kind of homes, higher end homes that people are willing to kind of credit premium for.
Is that kind of how you see it until. Maybe, I don't know, five years, 10 years when the technology becomes so widespread that it, that it can drastically reduce the cost to get into the affordable housing, um, sector. Is that kinda how you see it? Or so we see that the, the affordable housing is definitely something that we want to tackle.
Um, Right now, but I don't think it will take 10 years. [00:40:00] It's going to be way faster than that. Um, and things to be considered here is, um, when you do affordable housing, you're not going to do one offs, right. You're going to put up a big printer and you're going to do 10 of them in a row or a hundred of them in a row.
And as such, then automation is obviously fun, right? So you set up the machine once and to press play, and then it does its job. So there, you know, how, how would you. In depth amount of time, how would you even put [00:40:30] out the houses? Um, so again, from an investment point of view, you want to be, you want to.
Building done as quickly as you can, so you can make a start making money with it. And the 3d printer will definitely be able to do that very fast. So maybe, you know, better how to financially calculate this, this time, basically time until the tenant can move in. But that's a factor that comes in. So the equation here from, from our point of view as well, and the next thing is, um, I mean, how will we.
Globally be able to build these houses with the labor [00:41:00] shortage that we are in right now. Um, if you go around, yeah. Ask a couple of young people. If they want to work on the construction site, um, it gets more and more difficult to find those people. Um, and now with, with automation, we feel the tackle it from two sides.
Actually one is we need less labor. The other is, you know, working with a really big cobalt, bought two printer or a construction site. That's a lot of fun, um, that if you want to find a couple of young people who want to, you know, I sit on the construction side with a [00:41:30] laptop and operate a huge 3d printer at the end of the day, there's still a house there.
Right? There's still something to be proud of. You, you still get dirty, you still did something with your hands, but you also worked a lot with your laptop. Um, so I'm sure we will be able to, to get young people excited, but again, to work in this amazing industry, I'm, I'm personally, I'm a physicist, right?
I'm also kind of got into the industry a couple of years back, and it's, it's an amazing industry to work in where you can change people's lives. If you [00:42:00] built a house and people live in it. And you know, they, they grow old in that place. Um, and so we can get young people excited to work in industry. Um, and these are factors too, that come in here because I personally believe, I mean, construction costs.
We've seen it in last months, but it's not going to stop construction costs are just going to go up and up and up. Um, and so w what are we comparing ourselves to now? I mean, the costs that I was mentioning to you earlier, that was [00:42:30] considering last. I back in the day, we didn't have DC rises and lumber costs and whatnot.
Right. So, so what am I comparing? My, my costs now costs in one year, two years. I don't know. So that said, I think, yes, I do believe we will start at a little bit of more, let's say design oriented buildings to the entry level home, maybe a little bit more than that. Um, But it will definitely be able to go towards affordable [00:43:00] housing, but in all honesty, not today, um, how long it will take.
I'm not sure, but not quite today. Sorry to interrupt, but that is the question of the ink. Is that something that. Varies per printer or per company. How does that work? Because it seems like there's quite a variance on what people think they can print with and what is required. Um, there's various print, 3d printable materials out there.
So, so we, [00:43:30] um, at Perry and also our friends at cobalt, we are not material. Developers, uh, we've worked with all the major material suppliers that are out there and also with the smaller ones, um, because we feel that material has to be local, local, local, right. We don't want to ship it across the globe. We don't even want to ship it a hundred miles.
It has to be as close as it can be. Um, and this created the need for the bot to print from Cobra to be what we call material open. So [00:44:00] basically you. More or less put any printable material in there that you want, and then that you have to change a couple of parameters and then you can print it. Um, so there's not one truth when it comes to 3d printable inks, um, there's more tar like materials.
There's real concrete with a larger aggregate size. There is a cement mixes without Semans there's mixes with recyclable or recycled materials in there. Um, so there's. Quite a broad range out [00:44:30] there. And do you always have kind of have to take a look at all right. What, what is locally available for me?
And then also, um, of course, what are mind requirements for this particular structure that I want to build? Yeah, but you're not rolling a concrete truck up and dumping it into a hopper. Yeah. Yeah. You're not backing up your, uh, your, your, your concrete truck. Not yet. No, not yet. Do you think that is a possibility for the future?
I mean, being able to do something like that, [00:45:00] there's definitely work going on in that direction. Yeah, that's great. I just have one last question. What do people get wrong? When it comes to 3d printing of houses? Um, I think it's a bit of a mix right now, at least of hyping the technology slightly too much, and now don't get me wrong.
It's an amazing technology. Uh, we love it and we think it will change the world. Um, but you still have to be. Realistic on what it can do right now, [00:45:30] what it can do do in two years and what it can do and maybe 10 years. Um, so that is something that people tend to get a little wrong. There is still a learning curve to go through this.
And this needs the whole construction community, not the contractors, the investors, the inhabitants, everybody needs to work together to make this happen on the grander scale. Um, it's not going to happen overnight and we might not be quite where we want to be yet. Um, but the potential is trauma. I'm looking forward to making a tap and together with.
[00:46:00] All right. You amazing sustainable investors. Thanks for listening. And if you like this episode, please do us a huge favor. Take out your phone and tap, subscribe, and leave a written review. It really, really helps. And thanks to Joseph and Fabiana for being there on the front lines, trying to change in a dinosaur industry.
Not only to progress the future of, of construction, but also to help people live in [00:46:30] comfortable and safe homes, protected against hurricanes and fires and, and other things that can really take a toll, this kind of technology, if done, right. Kind of takes the flipping model and puts it down instead of the constant revolving waste and turning things and turning things, it seems to.
A safe, healthy home for tenants and a safe, liable asset for [00:47:00] investors who knows, cause maybe in a year or two service members stationed in Ramstein, Germany might be able to live in an eco 3d printed home. Will. As always links to everything we talked about will be on our show notes, just head over to sustainable investors, group.com.
We've got special offers for our friends and listeners. And until next time climb your mountains.
[00:47:30] Shall I did say something stupid. That's what you just, you didn't, you didn't say I didn't say anything stupid. Alright. Dad jokes, dad jokes. Oh, sorry. I'm going to be your father for the first time in August. So I'm practicing. [00:48:30] [00:48:00]